Pcgs is doing great things for the coin market, wouldn't you say?

[Leothelion]

Auction 1!

 

Auction 2!

 

Does anyone see a problem here?

 

Leo

[gmarguli]

This is mainly the fault of stupid people with too much money to spend. 99.99% of the buyers of this PF69 couldn't tell it apart from the PF68. In fact, I bet if both these coins were submitted 100 times each one would grade PF67, PF68, & PF69 at least once.

[Leothelion]

The PR68 definately looks better pic wise then the PR69. And the 68 got sniped! Congrats to the winner!

 

Leo

[TomB]

Wow! That's more than a one hundred-fold difference. I will be honest and state that I would not be able to tell you which coin would grade at each level, if I had seen them raw. Also, please keep in mind that this is not my area of expertise.

[JamminJ]

Note to self:

If putting together a set of certified proof Jeffersons, make sure the 72-S is in a 68-DCAM holder.

 

-JamminJ

[gmarguli]

Note to self:

If putting together a set of certified proof Jeffersons, make sure the 72-S is in a 68-DCAM holder.

 

-JamminJ

 

What kind of attitude is that? You actually admit that you'll let someone ahead of you in the registry set ranking just so you don't have to pay a few hundred dollars more for an insert. I am disappointed in you.

[JamminJ]

Note to self:

If putting together a set of certified proof Jeffersons, make sure the 72-S is in a 68-DCAM holder.

 

-JamminJ

 

What kind of attitude is that? You actually admit that you'll let someone ahead of you in the registry set ranking just so you don't have to pay a few hundred dollars more for an insert. I am disappointed in you.

 

I'm willing to trade a few registry set points for an additional thaler. Call me kooky.

 

-JamminJ

[LucyBop]

Yeah I see a problem.....

 

The images are wrong form the start...

 

How is it that you can be so sure from images...?

 

the first problem I see, is that you should have the coins in hand, then you can make a better judgement as to their quality...

 

the first auction has a tweaked image, cmon, look at the color of the slab insert. It isn't even blue, this image was tweaked it appears to me to show more cameo contrast or something..

 

Cameo coins are not the easiest to image....

[BillJones]

I'm willing to trade a few registry set points for an additional thaler. Call me kooky.

 

I'm willing to trade a few registry points if I like the lower grade coin better. I once replaced an MS-65 Roanoke with an MS-64 Roanoke because the MS-64 was a better coin. Both pieces were PCGS graded coins. I've also passed on an MS-64 St. Gaudens $20 for my collection when I found an MS-63 that was better.

 

To me the registry is just something you do for fun. Every one of my registry coins are photographed, and I have written a commentary for them. No offense, but these registry sets that have no photos and no comments are pretty boring. Some people have not mastered the art of coin photography, but If you have laid out the kind of cash that it takes to get high grade coins like that, I would think that you would have something to say about them.

[EZ_E]

Bill, excellent point!

[jom]

What Bill said.

 

I recently DOWNGRADED from an MS63 to an AU58 1913 Eagle. It was a NO BRAINER. The AU had the same if not more luster, it was more eye appealing AND it saved me $300 once I sold the MS63. Too funny.

 

99.99% of the buyers of this PF69 couldn't tell it apart from the PF68.

 

I'd say most if not all couldn't tell a PF67 from that 69, maybe even a 66.

 

BTW, as to that auction, anyone named "whoopiegreenjeans" deserves to sell a slabbed proof nickel for three bucks.

 

jom

[mark]

Bill:

 

I would LOVE to have the expertise to take pictures of my coins because I truly enjoy looking at the pictures in other people's sets. I also would LOVE to have the time to write something about the coin, if from whom I purchased the coin. I have done so for one of my sets--commemoratives--but I simply have had the time to do so for any other set.

 

Re KOTJ's point about PCGS affecting the coin market: As an ignorant teenaged purchaser of whizzed coins (4 decades ago) and cleaned coins (again 4 decades ago) and counterfeit coins (again 4 decades ago) I couldn't give a rat's ruddy rump if someone wishes to pay a lot more money for a higher graded coin. I think the world of the top tier TPG companies. They have helped rid the hobby of ills that dwarf our complaints nowadays.

 

Sure, I know what KOTJ and others will reply to me--I should be a well informed, well educated collector who can grade on my own and thus I will never purchase a whizzed/cleaned/or counterfeit coin. But there are many things I should do--I should lose 20 pounds, eat leafy green vegetables, and floss after every meal. TPG grading companies can't help me with my health. But, with TPG companies, I no longer need spend nearly as many hours trying to become totally informed on all the nuances of grading because I already have an independent 3rd party's opinion of the grade. Yeah, they make mistakes but it's still great information to have when I start examining a coin, deciding if I want it in my collection. And, why do I care if someone else wants to pay the big bucks to gain a registry point--I don't have to do so if I don't want to...and I don't. So, I guess my bottom line is that I wish there was some way that PCGS could lose weight for me, eat my leafy green vegetables, and floss. If they (or NGC or ANACS) could do that for me, then they would be perfect.

 

Mark

[jom]

Mark makes a good point. I wouldn't put the blame on the TPG's for the huge price differences on small grades. At some point in the last 20 years the GRADE of a coin became more important than the COIN itself...

 

jom

[XpipedreamR]

I don't understand the premise of the title of the thread. I understand that most anything PCGS is not popular around here, but what do these auctions have to do with what, if anything, PCGS is or isn't doing for the coin market?

 

Are you saying that NGC graded coins do not show a large price jump for small grade increments in some cases? Or that high grade NGC do not sell for high prices? I'm not trying to be difficult; I don't understand what the point is.

 

 

[gmarguli]

The point is that the PCGS registry has help pervert the prices for coins. Only the top pop coins for some series have value. You're looking at a 15,000% increase in price for a difference in quality that 99.999% of the buyers couldn't tell. You're got people buying inserts and not coins.

 

Is 15,000% more worth it for something that might be as small as a hairline 1mm in size?

[TomB]

I took the spirit of the initial post to read "any third party certification company" instead of exclusively PCGS. However, I think that PCGS moderns have a more stratified price range than NGC in these grade ranges.

 

Overall, I believe both companies do much more good than harm to the hobby/industry and some of the damage we see is from bidder's egos.

[coinman1794]

That's right. Its the bidders, not the graders, that are paying these prices.

[mark]

Greg:

 

As you know, I typically agree with your comments. But I don't understand your concern that "the PCGS registry has helped pervert the prices for coins." Neither you nor I buy top pop coins simply to gain another registry point. Given this, perhaps we both ought to be glad that the registry exists because if it decreases the demand for the near-top pop coins that have the 1 mm scratch, the decrease in demand means that the price of these coins will either fall or, at worst, not change. So we get the coins that we like at either at cheaper price or at no change in price. I like any sort of perversion that lowers the price of something I want to buy, so the registry perhaps sounds like a good deal for us! Indeed, I think I shall go over to the PCGS site and slobber some praise on HRH. ( )

 

More seriously, perhaps you think we should worry about newbies who pay what we consider insane prices for top-pop coins? I, personally, disagree because I think adults should be allowed to do what they want to do, even if I think they are making a mistake. So, given this belief, if someone wants to pay thousands of dollars for a piece of paper because it makes him or her feel good (since it says PR70DCAM and has the initals PCGS on it), then more power to them. It makes them happy and so I am happy for them...

 

Mark

[lclugza]

Gee, the guy with that 69 should crack it out and send it back to PCGS- he might get a 70 worth maxijillions of dollars!

 

(of course, it might, just might have a minuscule chance of being downgraded as well.

 

I agree with Greg, there's not that much difference between the two grades.

[gmarguli]

I agree. The people chasing after the top pop coins sure make those pathetic undergrade coins look cheap. I love that. I also love the fact that the people buying these top pop coins pay very well and they are extremely quick to pay. They help me buy so many pathetic coins - like colorful MS66 commems and 17th century thalers. I like these people!

 

Personally, I don't care what people pay for insert rare coins. Rare modern coins almost always become common modern coins. This is even more true with proofs. The people buying these coins have enough money to waste if that's what they want to do. I just find it sad that people would pay such a major premium for a meaningless upgrade just so they can think they have a better set than someone else.

[michael]

for me certianly i respect the holders of coins

 

but ask yourself this if i broke each one of these coins out of their holders what are they worth?

 

if the holder gives the coin more than 60% of its value then i say you had better be careful

 

let the buyer beware and all that

 

if you still want to buy it so be it

 

just make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into

 

for me

 

i want coins that ultimately are worth as much if not more out of the holder and

 

at the very least are worth at least 50% or more out of their respective holders in raw form

 

call me crazy

 

michael

[Leothelion]

Greg:

 

As you know, I typically agree with your comments. But I don't understand your concern that "the PCGS registry has helped pervert the prices for coins." Neither you nor I buy top pop coins simply to gain another registry point. Given this, perhaps we both ought to be glad that the registry exists because if it decreases the demand for the near-top pop coins that have the 1 mm scratch, the decrease in demand means that the price of these coins will either fall or, at worst, not change. So we get the coins that we like at either at cheaper price or at no change in price. I like any sort of perversion that lowers the price of something I want to buy, so the registry perhaps sounds like a good deal for us! Indeed, I think I shall go over to the PCGS site and slobber some praise on HRH. ( )

 

More seriously, perhaps you think we should worry about newbies who pay what we consider insane prices for top-pop coins? I, personally, disagree because I think adults should be allowed to do what they want to do, even if I think they are making a mistake. So, given this belief, if someone wants to pay thousands of dollars for a piece of paper because it makes him or her feel good (since it says PR70DCAM and has the initals PCGS on it), then more power to them. It makes them happy and so I am happy for them...

 

Mark

 

But what if you want to sell? At that cheaper price or at no change in price?

 

Leo

[goose3]

Michael you hit the nail on the head.

 

Take both of those coins and bust them out and list them RAW on ebay and advertise them JUST as they are now with NO reference to third party grading whatsoever.

 

You'd be lucky to buy a roll of '04 nickels with the proceeds.

[DonHeath]

i want coins that ultimately are worth as much if not more out of the holder and

at the very least are worth at least 50% or more out of their respective holders in raw form

 

Pretty smart post. I like buying the coins I suspect will be worth many multiples should I decide to holder them. There's simply too much good raw material still available to search. Most set builders have (or should have) a very good idea what quality looks like, but many seem unwilling to act on that knowledge. I'm unsure how connected that unwillingness is to the registry. Bunches of coins are being sold for a premium in lower tier holders. It seems to me that a loupe is less expensive than a bunch of holders. Dealers and critics of condition rarities frequently suggest that the market for these coins will collapse. Maybe it will, logically it should, but there sure seems to be a willingness to buy pre-digested material. There are perhaps a few dozen post-1940 coins I would seek out in a holder because they're so danged difficult, but otherwise I would certainly prefer set building from nice raw material. I know lots of posters to this thread approach these coins exactly as I do. The gap between price for a superb raw XXX and a holdered XXX exists now because the dealer community still largely ignores these coins, but that won't always be true. When the dealers begin searching their own material and seperating the PQ raw moderns, the holdered coins will decrease in price as the populations are increased and the PQ raw ones will increase in value because of their suddenly diminished availability raw, closing the gap. The collector market seems to prefer pre-digested, so it's a matter of time before the dealers exploit that preference. Ironically, it's the unwillingness of the dealers to market this material that is creating the gap. As more of them focus of this market, the markets will balance. Last year I was lucky enough to locate and holder half dozen condition rarities purchased from local dealer stock. I'll bet that won't be the case a few years from now. JMO

[cladking]

It's also curious that so many people insist on "ignoring" the raw high grade coins even as they are drying up. Not that these are markets or collections for everyone. It's patently obvious that most collectors have almost no interest at all in later date coins whether they're rare, high grade, or gold plated. As these markets grow there are more and more dealers getting into them and as I've long speculated, there aren't even enough of some of these coins to fill up the pipeline.

[IrishMike]

I took the spirit of the initial post to read "any third party certification company" instead of exclusively PCGS. However, I think that PCGS moderns have a more stratified price range than NGC in these grade ranges.

 

Overall, I believe both companies do much more good than harm to the hobby/industry and some of the damage we see is from bidder's egos.

 

Tom I couldn't agree with you more. The registryies are inherently anything but a place to showcase a collection, its the chase to be number one, two etc. that drives many of these prices.