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It is a bad idea to underestimate or overestimate your fellow posters...

55 posts in this topic

Chris, grow up! I did not in any way dishonor your parents. I did not even know them. Get crying like a little girl and take some responsibility for your own action!

Mark posted a great topic that's really important for folks to keep in mind. We all make mistakes in what we post about coins and about others. It's impossible to be right all the time and easy to underestimate someone on a keyboard.

 

It's tough to keep an open mind to all the possibilities when we can't see the coin or the person in hand. All we can do is learn from the mistakes and go on.

 

 

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Chris, grow up! I did not in any way dishonor your parents. I did not even know them. Get crying like a little girl and take some responsibility for your own action!

 

Save it, Charlie! Anything you say now is worthless.

 

Chris

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Hi, To start with, here's wishing you the best on your medical issues. On the topic of destruction or damage to coins because of mishandling, improper storage, and other attrition, the situation is much much worse with other types of collectibles such as paper items, including postage stamps, postcards, comics, photos, books, and sports cards. The ongoing attrition is inevitable and unavoidable. Some of those homes destroyed in our recent deadly tornadoes contained valuable collectibles. Attrition is part of what makes scarce things in fine condition so valuable. It's a topic collectors deal with every day, directly or indirectly, from many viewpoints. It requires maybe a dozen ongoing threads, many of which are already here in the NGC archives, and which I have been consulting. Since you feel so strongly about some of the things involved, when and if you feel up to it, please start a new thread for each aspect needing special consideration, and please include your recommendations for alleviating the problem.

 

I have been very ill for three years now and very frustrated with this board. I am a serious (retired) professional person who would like to occasionally have a coin topic that I bring up in a serious vein be not blown off. I do not come here very often any more because I have been either ill or in the hospital for most of the past 3 years.

 

There used to be many people on this forum (who are mostly gone now) that would occasionally engender a serious collecting discussion and the atmosphere was very much more oriented towards problem discussion and solutions.

 

Jason, no offense, but this is not a crusade and I frankly do not care if you are interested in this topic or not. You have an ax to grind with me, you may feel, but take it elsewhere please.

 

It is a serious topic which needs to be addressed by the numismatic community before most of the collecting world will stop thinking of coin dealers and collectors as purely monetarily motivated and not a serious hobby worth serious investment on material which is often damaged by careless dealers and even by grading companies while in the process of handling what are essentially delicate antiques because that is what many coins are.

 

I have been collecting coins seriously since 1964 and have in that stretch of time seen many many beautiful coins turn in holders and spot to the point of seriously degrading value because of the way that this hobby and those in it handle delicate numismatic material. I personally have lost a great deal of money because of this deplorable handling of coins and probably most of you have as well. Will you talk about this topic or not?

 

For this reason, I think it is worth some time and effort to consider the way that coins and hobby materials are handled and mishandled in this hobby. Now, you can all fall back into your comfort zone and go on believing whatever you think that you are doing adds value to this hobby. The reality though is something totally different and valuable numismatic material is being damaged every day by coin dealers, collectors and even coin graders who do not know how to preserve antique material collectibles which is, at least partially, what this hobby is about.

 

Mark, I am not trying to be off topic, only trying to have a serious subject be taken seriously! Some enlightenment on this topic by dealers and any advanced hobbyists would be appreciated. Is there anyone left here who is willing to discuss a problem area such as this subject or are we to continue destroying value blithely into the future through the very nature of how we do not respect the material that we collect?

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I myself love many of the intelligent humorous quips on these boards. As they say, humor is the best medicine. Plenty of readers here are exhausted after a day's work and turn to these forums for relaxed entertainment, while they're winding down, almost as much as they do for numismatic information and expert opinions.

 

Please explain what you meant by detrial contamination? And is this the correct thread for that topic?

 

Frankly, I have about given up on being able to post a question on this forum (and a few other forums as well) which requires any serious thought to question and/or get a straight answer. I am frankly surprised that anyone even tries to do so on this forum anymore. Either the post gets immediately derailed by certain individuals for their own humorous musings and/or self-serving entertainment or the post gets ignored because any people who care are probably posting somewhere elsewhere (maybe ATS) so that they might get some relevant information without all of the off-topic non sequiturs that any serious topic here immediately gets buried under.

 

The only topics here that seem to get any serious attention are ATS bannings and CAC or second party grading musings. These topics go on with endless repeated, page-long, quotations for months! I have absolutely given up on getting from this forum which is outside of the few topics that I mentioned. It has become apparent that if I want to know something about a coin topic, I will not post it here!

 

I have been a member here since this forum started and it did not used to be this way! Most of the people that I have been acquainted with here who are serious about this hobby either infrequently post here about nothing serious or they have stopped coming here altogether. I have just given up any hope whatsoever that anything serious that I may want to ask or have a question about will never be addressed unless I get co-sponsorship from someone here who can stop my topics from being buried in BS!

 

Just my frustrations with this site being put into words. Now Chris, I just left myself wide open, bury me in BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I tried a couple of times with great serious intent, to start a topic on detrial contamination of coins by professional graders and both times Chris buried me in SH** and everyone else ignored me. So much for this place being a source of any collecting enlightenment or information! You all were too busy quoting each other about CAC! I think that I am crazy to actually pay money each year for the lack of any benefit that I get from being a member here and getting to read Chris' clown act at my expense!

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Detrius is a nice word for contamination, mostly human organic compounds which attack and permanently damage the surface of coins which are made of materials which are suceptable to oxidation, including copper, silver and even gold.

 

I did start a new topic.

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I feel that graders should wear a mask and gloves. Also, no food allowed in the grading room. (tsk)

 

Heck, even the CGC graders wear gloves. They have to count pages with them on as well. Appparently, coins are more suseptible ?sp to foreign objects than comics. I don't use gloves when I handle comics worth several thousand each.

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I feel that graders should wear a mask and gloves. Also, no food allowed in the grading room. (tsk)

 

Heck, even the CGC graders wear gloves. They have to count pages with them on as well. Appparently, coins are more suseptible ?sp to foreign objects than comics. I don't use gloves when I handle comics worth several thousand each.

 

CD,

 

I agree with the mask, and it might even be a good idea that they wear "scrub caps" because there are oils in your hair. The problem with gloves is that you only have three choices:

1) plain latex gloves without powder, but these are hard to put on and your hands will perspire.

2) latex gloves with either talcum or corn starch to make them easier to put on and keep your hands dry. The problem with these is that some of the powder can get on the outside of the gloves and end up on the coins.

3) cotton gloves can be slippery especially when handling smaller coins. I'd hate to see a nice high-grade UC PF dime slip from their grasp. The cotton gloves are also a pain when they have to write their remarks and shuffle papers.

 

Chris

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I feel that graders should wear a mask and gloves. Also, no food allowed in the grading room. (tsk)

 

Heck, even the CGC graders wear gloves. They have to count pages with them on as well. Appparently, coins are more suseptible ?sp to foreign objects than comics. I don't use gloves when I handle comics worth several thousand each.

 

CD,

 

I agree with the mask, and it might even be a good idea that they wear "scrub caps" because there are oils in your hair. The problem with gloves is that you only have three choices:

1) plain latex gloves without powder, but these are hard to put on and your hands will perspire.

2) latex gloves with either talcum or corn starch to make them easier to put on and keep your hands dry. The problem with these is that some of the powder can get on the outside of the gloves and end up on the coins.

3) cotton gloves can be slippery especially when handling smaller coins. I'd hate to see a nice high-grade UC PF dime slip from their grasp. The cotton gloves are also a pain when they have to write their remarks and shuffle papers.

 

Chris

I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps food, hair and breath could be better controlled, along with proper coin handling. Or, perhaps damage from coin handling almost never happens?
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Detrius is a nice word for contamination, mostly human organic compounds which attack and permanently damage the surface of coins which are made of materials which are suceptable to oxidation, including copper, silver and even gold.I did start a new topic.

 

Sorry never heard of that terminology, or the previous word you used, detrial. Didn't you mean to write detritus and detrital?

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I would be happy if they just washed their hands and kept them clean and dry at all times and kept the food out of the grading area. That would be the most common sense thing to do. IMHO. Masks would be good, though, for close examination without breath or spit being transfered.

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I would be happy if they just washed their hands and kept them clean and dry at all times and kept the food out of the grading area. That would be the most common sense thing to do. IMHO. Masks would be good, though, for close examination without breath or spit being transfered.

 

 

Certainly I agree. It's easy to get used to a lightweight facemask, which some people wear routinely during cold and flu season. But we're off topic here, the discussion should be adjourned to the other ongoing thread:

Coin contamination thread.

 

 

 

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I have seen "experts" unknowingly post pure bologna.

Not sure what you mean by "experts?"

I mean acknowledged experts.

Hmmm hm I hope I'm listening to the right people then. One positive indication, at least in my mind, is that I have sold a few coins from a member here whom I read the posts of very closely. When I do sell their coins to dealers the dealers have been very complementary of the coins and paid good prices for them.

That's a very good sign.

 

As a general example of "bologna", I have occasionally seen an expert or two look at an on line image and declare a genuine coin to be counterfeit. And on more than one occasion, I, myself, was fooled by on-line images of a counterfeit coin and mistakenly opined that the coin looked genuine.

 

It's funny you should mention that. What drives someone to claim another's coin is counterfeit when there are no indicators of such? If a side-by-side comparison of coin images shows no differences (except perhaps shadows), why even bother to proclaim you have "discovered" a counterfeit?

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I have seen "experts" unknowingly post pure bologna.

Not sure what you mean by "experts?"

I mean acknowledged experts.

Hmmm hm I hope I'm listening to the right people then. One positive indication, at least in my mind, is that I have sold a few coins from a member here whom I read the posts of very closely. When I do sell their coins to dealers the dealers have been very complementary of the coins and paid good prices for them.

That's a very good sign.

 

As a general example of "bologna", I have occasionally seen an expert or two look at an on line image and declare a genuine coin to be counterfeit. And on more than one occasion, I, myself, was fooled by on-line images of a counterfeit coin and mistakenly opined that the coin looked genuine.

 

It's funny you should mention that. What drives someone to claim another's coin is counterfeit when there are no indicators of such? If a side-by-side comparison of coin images shows no differences (except perhaps shadows), why even bother to proclaim you have "discovered" a counterfeit?

 

I don't think any harm was intended. Sometimes it can be very difficult or nearly impossible to authenticate a coin, even based on good images. Never mind the bad ones. But that doesn't stop us from trying.

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I have seen "experts" unknowingly post pure bologna.

Not sure what you mean by "experts?"

I mean acknowledged experts.

Hmmm hm I hope I'm listening to the right people then. One positive indication, at least in my mind, is that I have sold a few coins from a member here whom I read the posts of very closely. When I do sell their coins to dealers the dealers have been very complementary of the coins and paid good prices for them.

That's a very good sign.

 

As a general example of "bologna", I have occasionally seen an expert or two look at an on line image and declare a genuine coin to be counterfeit. And on more than one occasion, I, myself, was fooled by on-line images of a counterfeit coin and mistakenly opined that the coin looked genuine.

 

It's funny you should mention that. What drives someone to claim another's coin is counterfeit when there are no indicators of such? If a side-by-side comparison of coin images shows no differences (except perhaps shadows), why even bother to proclaim you have "discovered" a counterfeit?

 

I don't think any harm was intended. Sometimes it can be very difficult or nearly impossible to authenticate a coin, even based on good images. Never mind the bad ones. But that doesn't stop us from trying.

 

And, of course, there are the beyond obvious Chinese fakes....

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I think the term "expert" is relative and no one is truly an "expert". I think the term expert implies that you are a state of knowledge that you almost can't learn more...

 

I think anyone who states he or she is an "expert" is not always true.

 

We can be an expert in one specialty field, but no one can know everything. I'd consider Q.Bowers an expert for sure, but I'm not sure if he would say he is.

 

The same applies to magic (illusion/sleight of hand tricks), as soon as we think "Oh I'm the best at this. I've mastered it now. I'll move on to a dfiferent trick and "master" that one."

 

There's no such thing as mastery in my opinion. There is always room for growth/improvement. I've worked on a single routine now for over a year and a half almost, about 1,500 hours. Complete world class mastery is 10,000 hours. I still have 8,500 more hours to go! And even then, there is still room for growth! I practiced it 3 hours-6 hours a day everyday for a year, and then continued (with less practice) for another half a year (almost). There's a quote by someone , I forget who. Someone famous...who said, something like "Any fool who admits he knows everything; a wise man admits he knows nothing." We really know not much about numismatics n the scope of things. I'm sure we have ALOT more that we haven't learned from what we have! About history, we are learning new things everyday. There is so much to learn about a specialty in a field, no one knows it all. This is why I'm skepitcal when soneone uses the term "expert". Some people I DO consider experts, Mark Feld, Q.Bowers, Roger Burdette,Mark Fazzarai (sp? authenticator)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think the term "expert" is relative and no one is truly an "expert". I think the term expert implies that you are a state of knowledge that you almost can't learn more...

 

I think anyone who states he or she is an "expert" is not always true.

 

We can be an expert in one specialty field, but no one can know everything. I'd consider Q.Bowers an expert for sure, but I'm not sure if he would say he is.

 

The same applies to magic (illusion/sleight of hand tricks), as soon as we think "Oh I'm the best at this. I've mastered it now. I'll move on to a dfiferent trick and "master" that one."

 

There's no such thing as mastery in my opinion. There is always room for growth/improvement. I've worked on a single routine now for over a year and a half almost, about 1,500 hours. Complete world class mastery is 10,000 hours. I still have 8,500 more hours to go! And even then, there is still room for growth! I practiced it 3 hours-6 hours a day everyday for a year, and then continued (with less practice) for another half a year (almost). There's a quote by someone , I forget who. Someone famous...who said, something like "Any fool who admits he knows everything; a wise man admits he knows nothing." We really know not much about numismatics n the scope of things. I'm sure we have ALOT more that we haven't learned from what we have! About history, we are learning new things everyday. There is so much to learn about a specialty in a field, no one knows it all. This is why I'm skepitcal when soneone uses the term "expert". Some people I DO consider experts, Mark Feld, Q.Bowers, Roger Burdette,Mark Fazzarai (sp? authenticator)

 

 

Stinky,

 

There is only one thing about which I can say without equivocation that I am an expert.........................ME!

 

Chris

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As to Mark's OP, I agree with him greatly. I have known many diploma holders that couldn't explain how to boil water truthfully and many specialists in various fields lacking in the very information network they supposedly were held in high regard for. Yet, I truthfully would take advice from, on an average, someone with a high level of commonsense, experience in the field in question and a true interest in this same field, rather than someone with paper hangings that cover a wall.

This very forum, et al, has proved this point to me upon many occassions. For example, a year or so ago, many discussions were being held on the forum regarding counterfeit gold. There was one poster who questioned everyone and after attending a large show, presented to the forum an astute methodology for detection of these items. His name was Kevin and he held such a fervor for this information and his posts taught me much about counterfeit gold detection. I truly hope he continues along this path, for he is a benefit to this and other forums.

So, please, do not under/over estimate anyone in any field. Usually, one that knows little will inform you a lot, and one that knows much needs not inform you of this fact.

This is just my opinion.

Jim

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Thanks jim, I really appreciate that.

 

I always felt like I never helped anyone, and the guy that never knew anything in numismatics, compared to you guys! People always said there is room for growth, I agree, but when they said this I felt like it confirmed my believe of what the nothing I knew. I didn't want to know everything, but I felt like I was always asking questions, and I never felt respected (Not on a personal basis, but just never felt my contributions helped anyone). So again, thank you Jim.

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Everyday is a " Learning " prospect. If we close our minds to listening and learning, we die. Perhaps not in the physical sense, but our communication and social skills would be greatly diminished.

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Some of us may have more knowledge than recognized experts, but only in very limited ways. For example, I studied a particular date and mintmark combination of a coin to determine how many reverse dies were used. Spending five years or so looking at every coin of a particular denomination/date/mintmark combination in online auctions, eBay, bourse floors, etc can make one into a mini-expert.

 

I'd much rather have broad knowledge to cover an entire series or all denominations minted within a certain date range, but that sort of expertise requires much more time than I have available to me.

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It is a bad idea to underestimate or overestimate your fellow posters.
Whaddya mean? I don't mind being overestimated :roflmao: !

 

Well that's good, because it happens all the time here. :baiting:

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