Portland Sig Sale of MS-FS Jeffs---WOW!

[spy88]

Just checked on all the PCGS MS-FS Jeffs that closed recently.

 

1938-D in MS67--->$1782.

1939-D rev 40 in MS66--->$3565.

1940 in MS67--->$2185.

1945-P in MS67--->$5635.

1945-P in MS67--->$5750.

1946 in MS66--->$3680.

1948 in MS66--->$2070.

1950 in MS67--->$7187.

1951 in MS66--->$3680.

1951-S in MS66--->$2875.

1954-S in MS65--->did not sell---has a BIN @ $9487.

1955-D in MS64--->$1380.

1956-D in MS66--->$4140.

1958-D in MS67--->$3335.

1959 in MS66--->$2185.

 

According to my 9 month old PCGS price guide, PCGS has some serious updating to do to the listings! The only one to sell for less was the 59. And look at that 56-D! Over 4X the guide price!

All totalled, $49,449. not including the 54-S.

[thebeav]

This is an area of the market where my attention has always been lacking. I'm absolutely floored by these staggering numbers. Thank you for pointing them out...

[jom]

OK, I wasn't paying that close attention to the earlier thread but wasn't there some 6-step VERY rare date (54-S ?) in that sale? What happened to it???

 

jom

[LucyBop]

Holy Smokes....!

[TomB]

[cladking]

For some reason there's a strong tendency for these to either be made poorly or marked up a lot. It doesn't help that most are marked excessively and there are very few well struck examples. They're somewhat better on strikes since the late '80's when the relief was lowered but they may be even worse with marking now and they are still tough to find in gem.

[Hoot]

I have to agree with Tom - !!!

 

I think that it's not true that there are a bunch of baggy and poorly struck examples of the dates David mentions, compared to the select few FS examples. (With one exception - the 55-D. The 1955 Jeffersons abound with baggy examples.) I've found and had graded my fair share of nicely struck MS66 and MS67 examples of many of these dates. Those coins simply did not have the full steps.

 

And on that note, I think it's important to say that the FS attribution is taken too seriously by collectors. Granted, they are a fun bunch of nickels to collect, but they do not represent the breadth of strike or conditional rarities of the series. I've said it before that strike is defined by many attributes on Jefferson nickels other than the step definition of Monticello. And strike is often what is lacking in the series, including on FS attributed coins. There's a lot more to say here, but I must refrain.

 

But here at the Portland ANA show, I went to a nice presentation on Jefferson nickels, full steps and major varieties, given by Bill Fivaz. He said somethng to the audience that I've believed for a long time with regard to FS coins with minor marks on the steps: "I don't think these coins are treated fairly by the third party grading companies." Specifically, he was referring to coins with minor hits or abrasions to the steps that get passed over for the attribution. His thought was that those coins deserve some form of recognition as well, and I could not agree more. How to do it? Perhaps as Darrell Crane suggested in The Portico a couple of editions ago. Otherwise, I think this subject will take a lot of formulative consideration to reach concensus with.

 

Also, a bit of a note on the show: Disappointing overall. Granted, it's better than what flies into the Big Sky State for coin shows, but compared to the Baltimore ANA of last year, this is not good. Nice coins are few and far between, and the nice ones, when you find them, are noticably so in terms of dollars and cents. Makes sense, but the cherrypick is tough. MANY dealers are selling so-called FS Jefferson nickels. I honestly think that 75% of them would not get certified as such by the big 3. Still, most are being sold for excessive premiums and I think that a lot of inexperienced collectors are being taken for a ride.

 

Mark Feld was a gas to talk to as he sold me a nice 1935 buffalo. EVP and TDN have been great to converse with, and I also got to meet jtryka briefly as well. I've met a few other excellent people and have had fun looking at a lot of coins I cannot afford! The best sights, however were Sarah and Danielle of NGC! Dave Lange was fun to talk to but not nearly as pretty as his cohorts! Beth Deisher from Coin World spent 2 wonderful hours with me and we talked about everything under the sun - a real treat. The people make up for vastly more than what the coins lack.

 

Hoot

[jom]

Mark Feld was a gas to talk to as he sold me a nice 1935 buffalo.

 

Ok, so why is he selling YOU nice Buffalos and not me? He's a dead man.

 

Granted, they are a fun bunch of nickels to collect, but they do not represent the breadth of strike or conditional rarities of the series.

 

As is the case with many other series with strike designations. I still don't see the need for them, frankly. Buffalo nickels get along just fine without them.

 

Again, my problem with designation is with the hyping of Full Whatever and often the way the non-Full Whatevers get ignored. Which is a shame since there are many non-Full Whatever coins that are undervalued....

 

jom

[gmarguli]

As is the case with many other series with strike designations. I still don't see the need for them, frankly. Buffalo nickels get along just fine without them.

 

Give it time and we'll have Full Tail/Full Feathers/Full Horn/Full Hoof/Full of It for the Buffalos. The insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who collect based on the strike of 3% of the coin (and yes, they are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons) will need a way to separate the average Buffalos from the slightly above average Buffalos.

 

I envision the day when every coin has at least 2 strike designations - probably more!

 

 

Again, my problem with designation is with the hyping of Full Whatever and often the way the non-Full Whatevers get ignored. Which is a shame since there are many non-Full Whatever coins that are undervalued....

 

That's OK. That just means we can pick up nice coins for a fraction of the cost because they are missing some basically meaningless designation.

[spy88]

The insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who collect based on the strike of 3% of the coin (and yes, they are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons)...

 

insufficiently_thoughtful_person---> 1. "A mentally deficient person, having intelligence in the lowest measurable range, being unable to guard against common dangers and incapable of learning connected speech. 2. A foolish or stupid person."

 

Fanatic---> 1. "A person possessed by an excessive zeal for and uncritical attachment to a cause or position." Synonyms:---enthusiast.

 

Greg, I beg to differ with you on two issues.

#1) I am not an insufficiently_thoughtful_person! A fanatic for FS Jeffs, yes, but to generalize the way I collect (and others) the Jeff series as idiotic is only true IF that is the only way they collect them. I for one, do not. FS is my prerequisite, but the best strike with FS is the goal. There must be both for me. Not just to have a Jeff with FS.

 

#2) And if it weren't for us "FS fanatics", all those who collect strictly for strike characteristics would have much more competition and make those non-FS coins cost you more and harder to find!

 

I don't know your collecting habits (or anyone elses) but would NEVER call them an insufficiently_thoughtful_person for doing what they do just because they do it that way. Each to their own is what makes the hobby what it is: diversification!

Cut us some slack, Greg! Use a more appropriate word that's more accurate to those of us who enjoy our hobby the way we wish to persue it!

 

David

[jom]

OK. That just means we can pick up nice coins for a fraction of the cost because they are missing some basically meaningless designation.

 

Well, yeah, of course.

 

Actually, what I see this as just another "tool" of the TPG's. Think of it this way: As long as the coin market is so dependent on the TPG's they can pretty much charge anything they want for their services. So I'd imagine that this is in their best interest. The more designations, grades and attributes they can slap on a slab the better because everytime they do the end user (ie buyer/dealer) is THAT much more dependent on the TPG.

 

And really, they don't do much good. Think of all this talk about going to a 100 point system. No matter how "precise" you make the scale there will ALWAYS be some number where there is a big price jump. Whether you call it MS64 and MS65 or MS89 and MS90 is irrelevant. That would also hold for some three-way strike designation such as non-FB, split-Band, full band for example. There will still be a big premium no matter how much you slice up the scale. Plus, we would now then be EVEN MORE dependent on the TPG for their "precision" than we are now.

 

It really is a shame people can't think for themselves here. Oh sure, many do, but I'd bet the VAST majority of collectors now highly depend on what PCGS "thinks" about a coin. Too bad...

 

jom

[gmarguli]

#1) I am not an insufficiently_thoughtful_person! A fanatic for FS Jeffs, yes, but to generalize the way I collect (and others) the Jeff series as idiotic is only true IF that is the only way they collect them. I for one, do not. FS is my prerequisite, but the best strike with FS is the goal. There must be both for me. Not just to have a Jeff with FS.

 

You're not one of the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. You use FS as a starting point. It is the people who use FS on the slab as a starting point and as an ending point are the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.

 

It is the people who were happy collecting Jeffersons as is and then when a grading service started to recognize FS that they started to collect them that way.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting FS on a Jeffersons, but to pay insane prices just because an insert says FS and the rest of the coin is struck average, that is idiotic.

[spy88]

You're not one of the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. You use FS as a starting point.

Thank you!

 

It is the people who were happy collecting Jeffersons as is and then when a grading service started to recognize FS that they started to collect them that way.

I may be wrong, but the TPGCs were only doing what I think the attribute-specific collectors wanted---recognition for a strike characteristic deemed important to a series that have them. As with the new nickel, I don't see where there is room for any attribution besides the grade, thus they will be collected based on quality of strike and nothing else. Shouldn't be, anyway.

 

...to pay insane prices just because an insert says FS and the rest of the coin is struck average, that is idiotic.

Not to disagree with you here, but there are certain dates/mm within the Jeff series where the quality of strike is rarely above 64/65. As a FS collector, paying lots of money for a FS in either of these grades (and sometimes lower) is the only way to obtain a FS. Many in the series will have a very weak strike but somehow manage to have full steps. As I posted the hammers on the FS Jeffs at start of this thread, no, I would not pay these prices even if they were the only ones I'll ever get offered to obtain a FS for the year/mm. But I think the "buy the insert, not the coin" played a major part in these prices, instead of the other way around.

 

David

[jom]

The only time it really is NOT "idiotic" (to use Greg's term) to pay those kinds of premium is when you find a coin that is truely at or near Full Strike. Another words if you find a 54-S Jeff and it's 4/5 steps and it is a strike that is better than 99% of the examples you've ever seen the premium is worth it.

 

The problem is that novice collectors of these series have absolutely NO idea when they see such a coin because of the lack of experience. So what happens is that they end up depending on the TPG's to slap that FS (or whatever) on the slab to justify the price they are about to pay. IMO, novice collectors should NEVER pay a premium on ANY coin until they are no longer novices. Only experts who already know the difference between an average strike and an exceptional one should be paying premiums.

 

This leads me to my point that the strike designations are useless. Because if a novice shouldn't be buying these coins and since experts don't need such designations (since they know more than the TPG's do anyway) the slab label is therefore useless, IMO.

 

jom

[Leothelion]

The insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who collect based on the strike of 3% of the coin (and yes, they are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons)

 

I started out like this when I, well, started collecting the FS Jeffersons! When the FS bug caught me I was checking every Jefferson nickel for full steps. I would sit for hours at any dealer's table who had those nickels searching for FS nickels. Needless to say, after a few short months and coin shows that got old real fast.

I actually graduated at that point and decided to check for full steps on those nickels that had luster and were brilliant. As time wore on, I started to take notice on how some dates the strikes were not all that great, especially thru the 50's and 60's. I eventually learned a great deal about how and what to look for through the Ramapaugh Trading company of Rich and Susan Sisti. And I was fortunate enough to have met the original founder of the FSNC, pakman Adolf Weiss.

Later on, as I started to accumulate a few FS nickels, I began a mailing price list and sold my extras. I also picked up a few tough dates that way.

The strike of the coin kinda grew on me as I was always trying to improve the quality of my collection. And I did find many of those dates that are very tough to locate with a full strike and full steps. A few are very close to full steps, like a few of the 60's date. It has been very disappointiong to see big money paid out for FS nickels where the only area that is strucked up are the steps while the rest of the coin looks like crapp. We saw that happen in the heritage "registry point" auction!

I have spent several years and a great chunk of money assembling my collection only to have some insufficiently_thoughtful_person grading service fail time after time with every coin they have misgraded and attributed. A fully strucked, high grade 1955-D with 4.9 steps has no place on the coin market with most of the new generation FS collectors. But they will readily shell out stupid money for a low grade, weak strucked coin that shows 5 steps. That 1954-S in the heritage auction is a gross example of a grading company's manipilation on the coin market for FS Jefferson nickels.

Shedding some light from the other side of the coin, so to speak, is that FS nickel collecting is in the infant stages for most FS collectors. They don't have a clue! And this includes the grading companies! They have much to learn. For most FS collectors, buying a vowel or a number is as difficult as it gets and in this case, it's a mint state number and nothing more. And I must add. there are a few new FS nickel collectors who have been fast learners and are doing quite well with this series and their collections.

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Just checked on all the PCGS MS-FS Jeffs that closed recently.

 

1938-D in MS67--->$1782.

1939-D rev 40 in MS66--->$3565.

1940 in MS67--->$2185.

1945-P in MS67--->$5635.

1945-P in MS67--->$5750.

1946 in MS66--->$3680.

1948 in MS66--->$2070.

1950 in MS67--->$7187.

1951 in MS66--->$3680.

1951-S in MS66--->$2875.

1954-S in MS65--->did not sell---has a BIN @ $9487.

1955-D in MS64--->$1380.

1956-D in MS66--->$4140.

1958-D in MS67--->$3335.

1959 in MS66--->$2185.

 

According to my 9 month old PCGS price guide, PCGS has some serious updating to do to the listings! The only one to sell for less was the 59. And look at that 56-D! Over 4X the guide price!

All totalled, $49,449. not including the 54-S.

 

I have no respect nor do I care to associate with these kind of people who have no regards for the fellow collector and the coin market for FS Jeffersons. Seeing someone paying stupid money and posting their new registry points before they even have seen the coins in person.......

 

Leo

[jom]

Seeing someone paying stupid money and posting their new registry points before they even have seen the coins in person.......

 

Hey, c'mon now! I bought a common date Buff tonight on Ebay and I know the 0.003458976 registry points it gave me will put me over the top!

 

jom

[Wihlborg]

 

Good one Jom!

 

John

[nickelcollector-migration]

Leo:

 

Don't you think you are being a LITTLE harsh on full step collectors?

 

Frank

[Leothelion]

Leo:

 

Don't you think you are being a LITTLE harsh on full step collectors?

 

Frank

 

Frank,

Welcome to the NGC forums!

 

Leo