What quantity qualifies as a "hoard"?

[James_OldeTowne]

I'm not referring to rarities, as I realized that owning just two 1913 Liberty nickels probably qualifies as a "hoard". But for generally collectable numismatic pieces, and not specific dates or issues, how many does it take to have a "hoard"? Does the bullion value matter? Is "quantity" the only factor in regarding a large group of coins as a "hoard"?

[JStull]

How about large numbers of differing dates, various denominations from all mints?

[James_OldeTowne]

How about large numbers of differing dates, various denominations from all mints?

That's one of the kinds of scenarios I'm interested in. For example, I've recently escalated my investment in certified coins pretty substantially, to where I now have about 300. They are coins of all grades and types, and to many observers, they might look almost like a random assortment. They are coins I simply purchased because I liked them in the slab, and "grade" was rarely a consideration.

 

Do they qualify as a "hoard", and if so, is it because of the quantity? or the apparent randomness of coin types?

[JStull]

That's a tough question.

 

If we go by the example of the Morgan dollar hoarding, albeit by the U.S. Mint, it would have to be the same denomination, various years, all mints, or at least the mints producing the Morgan and were receiving them back due to nonacceptance of the coin, and the Mint stock piling them in storage vaults, then eventually some being stored at the Reserve.

 

Or could it be the example of 1 individual or entity grabbing up as many examples of any one denomination, from various years and mints for holding until a significant numismatic value has been reached.

 

 

[RWB]

"Hoard" is defined by intent, not content.

[cpm9ball]

"Hoard" is defined by intent, not content.

 

If intent is the determining factor, then the 20,000 Westward Journey nickels, 2004-2006, that I have in bags and rolls would be considered a hoard. Correct?

 

Chris

[JStull]

"Hoard" is defined by intent, not content.

 

If that's the case then the Proof Set run from 1955 to present, plus individual Proof coins, in my collection is a hoard, no?

[Coindude]

"Hoard" is defined by intent, not content.

If intent is the determining factor, then the 20,000 Westward Journey nickels, 2004-2006, that I have in bags and rolls would be considered a hoard. Correct?

Chris

I would think there has to be some sort of percentage. I really doubt that 20k even begins to scratch the surface.

[grade it-migration]

New York Subway Hoard

Called the New York Subway Hoard, this stash of elusive coins was amassed by George Shaw, a 1940s coin dealer. Located in New York City, Shaw had many sources for coins, including NYC Transit Authority workers. The subway took in many coins daily, and workers had access to thousands. After the hoard purchase in 1996, Littleton's coin buyers opened the vault and discovered Type I 1916 Standing Liberty quarters, 1916-D Mercury dimes, 1896-S Barber quarters, and that was just the beginning.

Vermont Yankee Hoard

A. K. Miller and his wife Imogene lived a life of Yankee frugality in their home in East Orange, Vermont. Imogene fashioned raincoats from plastic bags, and A. K. rode a 1903 bicycle with patched tires.

 

But when they died, a fortune in cars, antiques, silver coins, and gold and silver ingots was discovered hidden in buildings and beneath the schoolhouse floor on the property. In the fall of 1996, Littleton purchased first-year Uncirculated 1878-S Morgans, seldom-seen $500 and $1000 Federal Reserve Notes, and the rare Miss Drury token. This became known as the Vermont Yankee Hoard.

Midwest Megahoard

Near the end of 1998, Littleton bought the largest coin hoard ever. Dubbed the Midwest MegaHoard, it held 1.7 million Indian Head cents and Liberty and Buffalo nickels, weighed 7.6 tons, and would stretch 21.7 miles if the coins were placed side by side. This stash was hidden in the walls of a Midwest collector's house. Filling canvas sacks and 55-gallon drums, the coins in this hoard had been off the streets, out of circulation, since the 1950s & '60s. According to American Coin Treasures and Hoards by numismatist Q. David Bowers, the Midwest MegaHoard surpassed prior records by a long shot.

 

[x2rider]

How about large numbers of differing dates, various denominations from all mints?

That's one of the kinds of scenarios I'm interested in. For example, I've recently escalated my investment in certified coins pretty substantially, to where I now have about 300. They are coins of all grades and types, and to many observers, they might look almost like a random assortment. They are coins I simply purchased because I liked them in the slab, and "grade" was rarely a consideration.

 

Do they qualify as a "hoard", and if so, is it because of the quantity? or the apparent randomness of coin types?

 

Are we going to see these on your website James ?

[PerryHall]

........owning just two 1913 Liberty nickels probably qualifies as a "hoard".

 

So the Smithsonian Institution has a hoard of 1822 half eagles?

[James_OldeTowne]

How about large numbers of differing dates, various denominations from all mints?

That's one of the kinds of scenarios I'm interested in. For example, I've recently escalated my investment in certified coins pretty substantially, to where I now have about 300. They are coins of all grades and types, and to many observers, they might look almost like a random assortment. They are coins I simply purchased because I liked them in the slab, and "grade" was rarely a consideration.

 

Do they qualify as a "hoard", and if so, is it because of the quantity? or the apparent randomness of coin types?

 

Are we going to see these on your website James ?

no way! This was not spam !

 

What led to my OP was the mention in a past issue of CoinWorld of a "hoard" of 80 double-eagles dug in Britain (I think), and it got me to wondering if that is really enough of such bullion to qualify as a hoard. But as I scanned the article, I noted it was really pretty much a random sampling of dates, so maybe that factor would qualify the "hoard" denotation.

[Conder101]

Near the end of 1998, Littleton bought the largest coin hoard ever. Dubbed the Midwest MegaHoard, it held 1.7 million Indian Head cents and Liberty and Buffalo nickels, weighed 7.6 tons, and would stretch 21.7 miles if the coins were placed side by side.

There weren't as many coins but I would think the Continental Bank hoard of silver dollars would beat that one. One point two million silver dollars. Like I said not as many coins but the dollars are significantly larger and heavier. Thirty six point three six tons and would stretch twenty eight point four one miles.

[cpm9ball]

Near the end of 1998, Littleton bought the largest coin hoard ever. Dubbed the Midwest MegaHoard, it held 1.7 million Indian Head cents and Liberty and Buffalo nickels, weighed 7.6 tons, and would stretch 21.7 miles if the coins were placed side by side.

There weren't as many coins but I would think the Continental Bank hoard of silver dollars would beat that one. One point two million silver dollars. Like I said not as many coins but the dollars are significantly larger and heavier. Thirty six point three six tons and would stretch twenty eight point four one miles.

 

Where in the heck did they store 1200 bags?

 

Chris

[JStull]

Near the end of 1998, Littleton bought the largest coin hoard ever. Dubbed the Midwest MegaHoard, it held 1.7 million Indian Head cents and Liberty and Buffalo nickels, weighed 7.6 tons, and would stretch 21.7 miles if the coins were placed side by side.

There weren't as many coins but I would think the Continental Bank hoard of silver dollars would beat that one. One point two million silver dollars. Like I said not as many coins but the dollars are significantly larger and heavier. Thirty six point three six tons and would stretch twenty eight point four one miles.

 

Where in the heck did they store 1200 bags?

 

Chris

 

I'm interested in that myself. I didn't think an ordinary bank vault could hold that many bags of coins.

[RWB]

Please reread the comment "intent not content," and give it some more thought.

[coinman_23885]

I'm not referring to rarities, as I realized that owning just two 1913 Liberty nickels probably qualifies as a "hoard". But for generally collectable numismatic pieces, and not specific dates or issues, how many does it take to have a "hoard"? Does the bullion value matter? Is "quantity" the only factor in regarding a large group of coins as a "hoard"?

 

I would say that the determination relies on a subjective analysis of four factors: quantity (factoring in relative percentage of population), quality (grade, matched set, etc.), value, and type. Obviously quantity (i.e. thousands of coins) of a particular type is significant enough to warrant the "hoard" label, but I also feel that smaller quantities of higher quality coins would qualify. For instance, I would describe 10,000 standing liberty quarters as a hoard. I would equally consider 30 MS65 standing liberty quarters (i.e. close in era, etc.) to equally be considered a hoard, especially if the coins are better dates (i.e. not necessarily rarities per se). Applying the third factor, I would say that 10 high grade (i.e. M65) Capped Bust Dimes would qualify as a hoard as well. I would define a hoard generally as a significant accumulation above what would be expected or is customary (again accounting for quality and other relevant factors).

 

With regards to you certified coin collection of 300 coins, I don't know that I would consider this a hoard per se . I would venture to say that most numismatists/investors/collectors have at least 100-300 slabs (start a poll), maybe more. If your collection focused on a particular type (i.e. Capped Bust Half Dollars, etc.), then I would identify it as a hoard.

[coinman_23885]

"Hoard" is defined by intent, not content.

 

But what about the little old lady who randomly throws her change into a jar without the intent to accumulate, but who accrues more than $5,000 face value in pennies (true story)? Would your answer change if this was $5,000 face value in wheat cents? Indian head cents? Flying Eagle cents? Large Cents? Clearly there are factors that are not dependent on intent.

 

Again, I'll reiterate that the term "quantity" as promulgated by James can me more than just the actual number of coins, but can refer to the relative percentage of the total population. Five thousand coins out of a population of 10,000,000 is nothing compared to 500 out of a mintage of 1,500. I think the subjective analysis that I suggested earlier, while admittedly likely to be incomplete, is a bit more accurate.

[coinman_23885]

I'm not referring to rarities, as I realized that owning just two 1913 Liberty nickels probably qualifies as a "hoard". But for generally collectable numismatic pieces, and not specific dates or issues, how many does it take to have a "hoard"? Does the bullion value matter? Is "quantity" the only factor in regarding a large group of coins as a "hoard"?

 

To quote Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it."

[DC Dawg]

"Hoard" is defined by intent, not content.

 

But what about the little old lady who randomly throws her change into a jar without the intent to accumulate, but who accrues more than $5,000 face value in pennies (true story)? Would your answer change if this was $5,000 face value in wheat cents? Indian head cents? Flying Eagle cents? Large Cents? Clearly there are factors that are not dependent on intent.

Then there's the Langboard family lead by the daughter of Israel Switt who has a hoard of TEN 1933 Saint Gaudens Double Eagle gold coins. Considering that the vast majority were melted and there is only two other known, the intent to accumulate as many as possible, which is what Switt did, I would call this a hoard.

 

Of course the Treasury calls this an illegal hoard, but this is what the courts will sort out!

 

Scott

[michael]

5 or more depending on the circumstances

[grade it-migration]

Just got the Virgil M. Brand Collection 1983 Auction Catalog Bowers and Merena. last week.

 

First sale I bought a uncirculated coin. $19.00

 

In 1926 the year of his death Virgil Brand had 350,000 coins.

 

Two 20 dollar gold coins were set aside from the rest of the 455,500 double eagles struck in the spring of 1933 but never released for circulation. They are part of the National Numismatic Collection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Then there's the Langboard family lead by the daughter of Israel Switt who has a hoard of TEN 1933 Saint Gaudens Double Eagle gold coins. Considering that the vast majority were melted and there is only two other known, the intent to accumulate as many as possible, which is what Switt did, I would call this a hoard.

That is what I was referring to early when I mentioned "rarities". To me also, that should qualify as a "hoard". But I'm not sure how it would be defined.

[JStull]

Please reread the comment "intent not content," and give it some more thought.

 

I read it the first time and there is no problem with my comprehension.

 

Again, I guess my Proof set run(already stated) and individual Proof coins would constitute a hoard, no?

[okbustchaser]

With regards to you certified coin collection of 300 coins, I don't know that I would consider this a hoard per se . I would venture to say that most numismatists/investors/collectors have at least 100-300 slabs (start a poll), maybe more. If your collection focused on a particular type (i.e. Capped Bust Half Dollars, etc.), then I would identify it as a hoard.

 

Although I do have well over 200 coins that USED to be slabbed along with probably another 200 which have always been raw (most of which are capped bust halves) I certainly don't consider them a hoard.

 

 

Now, the 93 1827 halves....

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Although I do have well over 200 coins that USED to be slabbed along with probably another 200 which have always been raw (most of which are capped bust halves) I certainly don't consider them a hoard.

Well sure, but you have an "intent" at play here - you intend to free those suckers from their plastic tombs !

[coinman_23885]

With regards to you certified coin collection of 300 coins, I don't know that I would consider this a hoard per se . I would venture to say that most numismatists/investors/collectors have at least 100-300 slabs (start a poll), maybe more. If your collection focused on a particular type (i.e. Capped Bust Half Dollars, etc.), then I would identify it as a hoard.

 

Although I do have well over 200 coins that USED to be slabbed along with probably another 200 which have always been raw (most of which are capped bust halves) I certainly don't consider them a hoard.

 

 

Now, the 93 1827 halves....

 

 

I would most certainly consider the 93 1827 halves to be a hoard.

[BillJones]

To me there are two types of hoards.

 

Type I is a large group of coins that are the same date and mint or even the type. The owner is not doing it to study die states or anything like that. He and she is just trying to put together as many examples of the same piece or type of piece as possible.

 

For example years ago I knew this guy who was trying to buy every 1873 Boston Numismatic Society medal in existence. He didn't attend BNS meetings and he knew very little about the history of the organization. He wanted to corner the market with the idea of controlling the market. To me that's a hoard.

 

Type II is large group of random coins that are owned by someone who knowns virtually nothing about them. That to me is what I'd call a "dumb hoard."