Opinion Regarding "No Returns" on In-Person Purchases

[mike169]

I have never understood why many (if not most) dealers are reluctant to accept returns on coins for in-person purchases. Now, I don't mean bullion where the prices could fluctuate (greatly), I mean collector coins.

 

I personally don't see much harm in providing a short (let's say one week) return period for in-person purchases. Now, I'm not a dealer. But I believe that in some cases, returns should be allowed. Here are the reasons.

 

1) The value of the coin would not change significantly.

2) There is no inherent depreciation in value once the coin leaves the store (c.f. new car sales).

3) There is sometimes sales pressure in buying a coin in person, which may not occur in off-person purchases. Furthermore, the environment (e.g. the lighting) may favor the seller, and the buyer should have the ability to take the coin home and view it in the privacy of his own setting before committing to a purchase.

 

 

[Tanman-migration]

Only reason I can come up with is that the dealer would not have every coin of his memorized and would not be sure he was getting the same one back. Now if it was slabed, I could see a them taking a return.

 

Tanman

[kryptonitecomics]

Personally.....in most cases I would not deal with someone who wouldn't stand behind the coins they sell....but that's not to say there couldn't be certain circumstances where a dealer would be wise not to accept a coin back...i.e it's a known probablem coin and the dealer makes it clear he doesn't want it back in his inventory etc.

[JStull]

If the coins are in OGPs or 2x2s, I can see not giving a refund for the reason Tanman mentioned, there is no way the dealer will know if he/she are getting the actual coin they sold you returned.

 

In so far as the value of the coin not changing significantly, the buyer should be knowledgeable of appreciation trends of coins and be able to determine if a particular coin will have an inherent increase in it's value.

 

Remember also, a coin's true value lies in what it is worth to the buyer.

[James_OldeTowne]

I have never understood why many (if not most) dealers are reluctant to accept returns on coins for in-person purchases. Now, I don't mean bullion where the prices could fluctuate (greatly), I mean collector coins.

 

I personally don't see much harm in providing a short (let's say one week) return period for in-person purchases. Now, I'm not a dealer. But I believe that in some cases, returns should be allowed. Here are the reasons.

 

1) The value of the coin would not change significantly.

2) There is no inherent depreciation in value once the coin leaves the store (c.f. new car sales).

3) There is sometimes sales pressure in buying a coin in person, which may not occur in off-person purchases. Furthermore, the environment (e.g. the lighting) may favor the seller, and the buyer should have the ability to take the coin home and view it in the privacy of his own setting before committing to a purchase.

Playing devil's advocate, and without agreeing or disagreeing with you, let me answer your question with a question:

 

Would you be willing to pay an extra amount for a return privilege?

 

Why should the dealer take all the risk? After all, let's say he offers you a 7 day return privilege. That means he has to keep all that cash in the bank for those 7 days, plus cash for all the other coins sold for those 7 days, making that money unusable during that time. He would need to have enough cash on-hand to cover any potential for return.

[thebeav]

I can completely understand it.

The dealer doesn't know if that coin is for you, your mom, or you intend to sell it.

So you, in effect, borrow the coin from the dealer and attempt to garner a profit by selling it elsewhere. A 3 day eBay auction with a higher reserve for example. You aren't able to make extra money on the coin. Oh well, "I'll take my money back now".......

Why should some dealer finance YOUR business ?

 

Paul

[PerryHall]

Any return period should be discussed with the dealer before the purchase is made. It should be obvious but it seldom happens.

[mike169]

I can completely understand it.

The dealer doesn't know if that coin is for you, your mom, or you intend to sell it.

So you, in effect, borrow the coin from the dealer and attempt to garner a profit by selling it elsewhere. A 3 day eBay auction with a higher reserve for example. You aren't able to make extra money on the coin. Oh well, "I'll take my money back now".......

Why should some dealer finance YOUR business ?

 

Paul

 

In which case, are coins so much of an investment as opposed to a collectible that there is a greater reluctance to accept returns?

 

[mike169]

Would you be willing to pay an extra amount for a return privilege?

 

Why should the dealer take all the risk? After all, let's say he offers you a 7 day return privilege. That means he has to keep all that cash in the bank for those 7 days, plus cash for all the other coins sold for those 7 days, making that money unusable during that time. He would need to have enough cash on-hand to cover any potential for return.

 

My answer to your question is -- it all depends. I am, but I'm not going to explicitly pay more for non-returnable vs. returnable. It has to be built into the system. Just like credit card fees that merchants pay. Would I be willing to pay more for credit card convenience? Not if it's explicitly stated, but in most cases, it's built in the price already.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

That's fair.

 

Then let me also ask you this: What if the dealer wanted for the option to buy the coin back from you, at the same price, in case he decided he didn't want to sell it after all, or for that matter, he found someone else who would pay him more for it? Would you be willing to return it for your money-back then?

[Dudley the 1st]

With all the " switch play " going on with slabbed coins , I don't blame a Dealer for not accepting returns. I 'm sure if you were a regular customer, some accommodation might be made.

[ldhair]

The only time I would ask to return the coin would be if it turned out to be fake. Returns like this don't make dealers happy. I want the dealer to like me and give me first shot at new stuff.

[betterdaycoming-migration]

Or, the dealer could be one that is barely getting by on the revenue, family to feed, etc. But while one has the coin and a 7 day period of inspection, what if someone comes in and is looking for that exact coin? I caan understand the frustration of the dealer.

[James_OldeTowne]

The point I was trying to make above is that there may not be a right or wrong answer. But, suppose you spend 15 minutes examining a coin in the presence of a dealer, haggle down the price a bit, and then fork over the cash. A few minutes later, a great offer walks up to same dealer, and he then uses the cash to make a purchase.

 

Next day, you have a change of heart and try to return it and get your cash back. It doesn't seem fair to me. The dealer thought he had a deal, and believed that money to be free for subsequent purchases.

 

On the other hand, everyone expects a return privilege, and deservedly so.

 

Therefore, my point in all this is that if you are going to make a sudden return like that on a purchase you got sight-seen, I think it only minimally fair to offer some token of appreciation. Perhaps the $1000 coin cost you only $900 after haggling, so maybe you should return it minus $50 out of appreciation for the dealer's hassle.

 

I virtually never return a coin, and have had very few returned to me, but it seems reasonable that generosity (and class) goes both ways.

 

Edited to add: PerryHall also made a terrific point above - one that gets overlooked much too often.

[michael]

thebeav has the correct answer

 

also there are many others too numerious to post here

 

i guess if i was at a coin shop or show and i wanted to buy a coin it is my decision and i wanted to buy it but also wanted a specified no questuions asked return priviledge

 

i would just ask the seller as such and then based on the answer deside from there

[Walkerfan]

I think that any return priviledge should be discussed beforehand, as already mentioned, and for SLABBED COINS ONLY. Coin Shows make sense not to accept returns because of the time and travel costs involved that factor into it (not to mention the cash only basis of sales). I PREFER a return policy but if I saw a coin at a show that I really liked, of course, I'm in agreement to an ALL SALES FINAL deal. You just have to understand what you're getting into. Sometimes it takes a day or two to be certain, so if your unsure, then just DON'T DO IT. If I DO like a coin at a show, I'll spend a good 20 minutes (if I'm seriously considering it) looking at it before I purchase it. Also bring a loupe and make sure there's a good light source. Pictures mask many issues (even on slabbed coins) that can be seen in hand at a show or shop. I guess if you really demand that insurance of a return policy, then you should just stick to buying through the mail.

[mike169]

The point I was trying to make above is that there may not be a right or wrong answer. But, suppose you spend 15 minutes examining a coin in the presence of a dealer, haggle down the price a bit, and then fork over the cash. A few minutes later, a great offer walks up to same dealer, and he then uses the cash to make a purchase.

 

Next day, you have a change of heart and try to return it and get your cash back. It doesn't seem fair to me. The dealer thought he had a deal, and believed that money to be free for subsequent purchases.

 

On the other hand, everyone expects a return privilege, and deservedly so.

 

Therefore, my point in all this is that if you are going to make a sudden return like that on a purchase you got sight-seen, I think it only minimally fair to offer some token of appreciation. Perhaps the $1000 coin cost you only $900 after haggling, so maybe you should return it minus $50 out of appreciation for the dealer's hassle.

 

I virtually never return a coin, and have had very few returned to me, but it seems reasonable that generosity (and class) goes both ways.

 

Edited to add: PerryHall also made a terrific point above - one that gets overlooked much too often.

 

1) To answer this post and one of your previous posts, my opinion is that the seller should bear the greater financial risks(in both ways).

 

2) My posts here were not originally intended for "change of heart" situations. Mine was for other occurrences, such as finding out using a different light source that there was a noticeable defect. Hardly unlikely, but possible.

 

3) Why should mail-order be any different from in-person, other than you get to view the coin in person first? With mail-order purchases, most dealers give a day or two consideration for slabbed coins, and longer for raw coins. The financial burden would be relatively the same in either case, I believe.

 

4) In which case, for mail-order purchases, is the return period to account for other factors, such as the customer having to perform other tasks during the return period, or is it to be used for examination? After all, I could spend about 2 hours a day studying the coin if I wanted to. I can't spend 2 hours sitting at the dealer's table or store.

 

To continue the post further, the risk of the switched coin or financial arbitrage or whatever you call it I believe is true in both mail-order and in-person.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Keigwin]

I am comfortable with a no-return policy for raw coins and an x-day return policy for slabbed ones.

 

As a businessman I make exceptions to rules for good customers, and as a good customer I would expect some bending of the rules to retain my business.

Lance.

 

[TomB]

As a general rule, in-hand inspection of coins should be an "all sales final" situation if inside a brick and mortar shop. If you need better light then bring it. If you are not certain about the coin then don't buy it. Purchases at coin shows often have a right of return during the day of purchase while those shipped to buyers of course can be viewed at leisure. Certified coins might be returned with little worry about injury to the coin or switching the coin, but regardless of raw or certified, having a full refund policy at a shop is akin to giving our interest free, short term loans in that the buyer can shop the coin around and attempt to flip the inventory without negative affect.

[Houston Investor]

Return Policy is a business decision of an individual dealer to control or limit certain financial risks of being in the coin business. Many dealers I have run across have the following basic policies:

 

1. Sight Seen (Shop or Show) - All transactions are final (usually the exception would be if there was an authentication problem or the transaction involved minors). Some dealers may allow a return on a sight seen sale but this is subject to a restocking charge.

 

2. Mail Order - Usually 7 day return priveledge (which could be from their date of shipment). Coin must be returned undamaged in original holder.

 

The sight seen rule is obvious. Allowing someone a refund on a sight seen transaction at a show or shop is essentially providing free inventory. Some show dealers do consign inventory to other dealers for a period of time like a major slab wholesaler who only has so much room in their cases; however this is subject to a consignment agreement and credit approval. The sight seen rule protects the dealer from buyers suffering from buyers remorse (guy shows purchased coin to wife who criticizes him for spending too much on coins and as we all know not enough on her ) or buyers simply out to flip the coin to others for more and then return it for a "refund" if it can't be flipped. Dealers are not in the coin business to provide free inventory or be your friend if you spent too much on coins. Its your responsibility to do your numismatic homework and budget your rare coin investment accordingly. Dealers are businessmen who have finite time and capital in a highly competetive business. I have seen shops or dealers who are willing to take back sight seen transactions but with a restocking charge of around 20%.

 

The mail order rule gives the buyer a chance to at least examine the coin in person but limits the time peried for the same reasons above. Shipping cost is usually nonrefundable and many will charge a handling fee or restocking charge. One needs to be aware of the seller's return policies when buying / bidding.

 

I have found many dealers at shows will not deal with minors unless a parent is present, especially if it is a situation where the minor is trying to sell coins. I have also seen dealers at shows refund sight seen transactions with adults but tell the person "Don't ever come back to my table and thats for life."

 

One needs to exercise caution in buying rare coins and do their homework accordingly. What kind of lighting does the dealer have at the table - none, 40 watt, or 75 watt or more? Will he let you use a glass if you did not bring one? Always examine the coin under a glass and tilt it numerous ways while examining it in the light. Look for major marks, hairlines, unattractive toning spots, strike weakness, and planchet flaws. Anything which might affect future sale or your satisfaction with the coin at that price.

 

 

 

 

[mike169]

I have figured out a few things after thinking of my own thread.

 

1. I know of no other retail "industry" that does not allow returns on sight-seen purchases for non-consumable, non-altered items. The jewelry store I go to offers a 30 day guarantee for jewelry. If I buy a book from a major bookstore, if I don't like it, I can always return it within 7 days if it's in the same condition. And so on. Even clothes bought at major department stores get returned frequently.

 

2. I just don't believe that coin dealers like returns (period). And I don't think they can afford them to any great degree either.

 

3. With the internet, I see no reason to go to brick and mortar stores any more to get the coins I want. Brick and Mortar stores are too expensive for me too. Shows are nice because I like the big environment, but other than that, it's easier to just wait for the coin I want in the mail, especially if I previous experiences with the dealer.

 

4. As one person suggested in another thread, if I'm not ready for coin collecting, that I should take up knitting. As a result, I will immediately take up knitting.

[James_OldeTowne]

1. I know of no other retail "industry" that does not allow returns on sight-seen purchases for non-consumable, non-altered items. The jewelry store I go to offers a 30 day guarantee for jewelry. If I buy a book from a major bookstore, if I don't like it, I can always return it within 7 days if it's in the same condition. And so on. Even clothes bought at major department stores get returned frequently.

 

There are many business sectors far larger than coins that do not allow returns. Some of these may involve consumables, but in a sense, owning a coin features a "consumable" aspect, because you enjoy ownership, and deprive someone else of enjoying that same ownership as you have it in your possession. In other words, the "consumable" pertinent to coins is "enjoyment".

 

Stocks: Imagine being able to return stocks and bonds after 7 days "just because"!

 

Food industry: can you return fresh bread after 7 days?

 

Utilities: you can't return your water to your local water supply, and you sure as blazes don't want local sewer district returning unwanted waste back to YOU!!

 

Medical industry: Ever tried to return your drugs for a refund?

 

Insurance: Are you allowed to return the used up portion of your insurance coverage because you decided it wasn't suitable? I realize this is more of a "service", really, but so is part of your coin purchase.

 

Basically, think of every single thing that you have charged or written a check for, or paid for in cash, and imagine trying to return it to the vendor. I believe you will realize that in actuality, there are many many many things you buy that you cannot return later, even after only 7 days.

[mike169]

 

Stocks: Imagine being able to return stocks and bonds after 7 days "just because"!

 

Food industry: can you return fresh bread after 7 days?

 

Utilities: you can't return your water to your local water supply, and you sure as blazes don't want local sewer district returning unwanted waste back to YOU!!

 

Medical industry: Ever tried to return your drugs for a refund?

 

Insurance: Are you allowed to return the used up portion of your insurance coverage because you decided it wasn't suitable? I realize this is more of a "service", really, but so is part of your coin purchase.

 

Basically, think of every single thing that you have charged or written a check for, or paid for in cash, and imagine trying to return it to the vendor. I believe you will realize that in actuality, there are many many many things you buy that you cannot return later, even after only 7 days.

 

Stocks have a volatile price change, and so do bullion coins. Collector coins do not necessarily fall into the same category.

 

Fresh bread is a consumable.

 

Never tried utilities. I'm sure if my utilities were faulty, they would give me a partial refund.

 

I have returned drugs because when I brought them to my parents for their use, they complained that they were not in the "official containers", and I returned the drugs with no problems.

 

 

 

 

 

[mike169]

 

There are many business sectors far larger than coins that do not allow returns. Some of these may involve consumables, but in a sense, owning a coin features a "consumable" aspect, because you enjoy ownership, and deprive someone else of enjoying that same ownership as you have it in your possession. In other words, the "consumable" pertinent to coins is "enjoyment".

 

But the coin is (usually) returned in the same condition, and the next owner can enjoy the coin just as much if not more.