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RIP, Cameron Kiefer

110 posts in this topic

Google cache is your friend . Plenty of people in this cached thread who had problems as well. Cameron was posting as recently as Sunday and saying he was trying to make everything right.

 

I'm resorting to posting here and the OFR due to CU's whitewashing. I didn't see anything in the CU threads that I'd call "cyber bullying", it was a pretty typical "someone ripped me off" sort of thread. I do recall at one point someone posted a link to his local police department, but again that is a standard response in a post about what appeared to be widespread fraud.

 

I hate that Cameron chose such a permanent solution to what could have been a temporary setback, and I feel horrible for his family and everything they will have to deal with. At the same time I don't see how anyone could blame the CU forum or specific posters there for what happened. The blame for this entire situation lies in one person's hands.

 

Sean Reynolds

 

P.S.: Adding a couple more cached CU threads: Saturday thread and Tuesday before the news hit .

Wow, it's tough to know how to react.

 

Reading between the lines, I suspect the handling of this ATS was positively despicable.

It really wasn't, James. Some folks were disturbed that friends and forum members were ripped off by another forum member-dealer. Blunt sentiment was expressed. There was no bullying or taunting. It was pretty much what you'd expect.

 

I am very sorry to hear the sad news. I lost a good friend to suicide last year and I don't think I will ever understand the depth of pain and depression that would drive one to do this to himself and his family.

 

Sincere condolences.

Lance.

Sorry, I meant the way PCGS handled the situation - by editing and deleting threads (as I understand it), including sincere ones.

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I refuse to be held hostage to some one's self inflicted acts.

The responsibility lies with the actor, and him alone.

That comment my friend is irresponsible. If you are an MD you know that depression is serious and the one that takes his or her own life is deeply troubled. It is sad when someone finds no other way to solve their problem than to take their own life.

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Hello fellow Numismatists,

 

Cameron sent me an email on September 22, when I was in jail:

 

"You doing ok man? I have been worried about you and then your email sent a virus link last week to everyone. I know you didnt do it but I wanted to give you a heads up.

 

Cameron"

 

I didn't get his email until shortly after I got out of jail on December 4. Ironic that he was worried about me but I should have been worried about him.

 

This is probably a good time to point out that many of the horrible things that are said on message boards do in fact hurt and can cause real lasting pain.

 

I have a pretty stiff spine and a fairly healthy self esteem but I can tell you that some of the things that have been said about me were not just lies and actionable but things that were said either not realizing how painful those lies are and how damaging they can be.

 

Unfortunately, small minded people who make it their habit of trying to bolster themselves and make themselves look good (in their own minds) by lying about others won't stop until something bad happens, usually, only to them, like getting sued.

 

Too bad it takes that to make people act responsibly and caringly.

 

Adrian Crane

 

[someone already took "my name" (anaconda), so I have to post as "therealanaconda", and if you doubt that this is the one and only Adrian Lovell Crane, formerly owner of Anaconda Rare Coins, call me in Golden Colorado at 720-309-1413. ]

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Wow, there are a lot of names here that I haven't seen since I stopped visiting ATS years ago. What Adrian says is absolutely correct, it's so much easier to say hurtful things from the cover of a keyboard. I know I've been guilty of it as well. It's tragedies like this that should make us all take a second look at what we say, and maybe for once put ourselves in the other persons shoes before we type that snyde comment for a quick laugh or to make us feel better about ourselves. I'll admit I haven't spoken to Cameron in years, but it still cuts to the quick thinking that this whole nightmare version of "It's a Wonderful Life" could happen to someone you know.

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Well this is a real blast from the past!!

 

How you doing Adrian? Doubt you remember me, but I post ATS as coindudeonebay.... coindude was already taken!!

 

Anyhow, yea, I remember all the banter that was going on a year or two ago about you. A lot of it went well beyond what I thought should have gone on.

 

At any rate, I have to agree that people are a lot more brave behind a keyboard. As for me, I'm one of those that's probably more harsh in person believe it or not. Not that I'm a harsh person, but I like to joke and at times I know I can get a bit out of hand. But when I see that I cut a person and it affects them, I can see it on their face and I let them know immediately that it was only a joke and please take no offense and ask for their forgiveness.

 

I have seen people go way too far over there, and it seems, if you are part of the "in crowd" you can get away with whatever you want even if it's against the established rules.

 

Anyhow, good to see you around here Adrian, hope you don't make yourself scarce. Always enjoyed your posts, always gave me insight and enjoyment.

 

PS.... what the heck were you doing in jail!! (feel free not to answer!!)

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Like a few other west coast collectors here I'm utterly speechless. I just can't believe this. I've had lunch with Cameron a zillion times at the Long Beach Show...as have Greg Marguli and James. He was the kid who we'd always give a hard time to because he was so young...kind of the goofy kid. I do know he told me he had quit the grading service and had gone into business for himself. I was absolutely certain this kid would be around a LONG time in the business. I know he loved his wife dearly and had a baby coming...now I hear he had TWO kids (is this correct?)...I haven't been to a show since early last year and it was a show or two before that the last time I saw him...so I'm a bit out of touch. I haven't frequented the boards so I didn't even know he had business problems. This is just...I dunno...speechless....

 

Unbelievable...just like Shiro said above...I'm in shock. Good lord...

 

jom

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Well this is a real blast from the past!!

 

IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I SURFACED.

 

How you doing Adrian?

 

I AM DOING VERY WELL.

 

Anyhow, yea, I remember all the banter that was going on a year or two ago about you. A lot of it went well beyond what I thought should have gone on.

 

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SHORTAGE OF insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.....THAT'S WHY PERSONAL INJURY LAW IS SO GOOD TO MOST PI LAWYERS.......

 

At any rate, I have to agree that people are a lot more brave behind a keyboard.

 

I AM NOT INCLINED TOWARDS VIOLENCE HOWEVER MANY THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN SAID ABOUT ME IN CYBERSPACE WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A CHALLENGE TO CONSENSUAL FISTICUFFS.

 

I have seen people go way too far over there, and it seems, if you are part of the "in crowd" you can get away with whatever you want even if it's against the established rules.

 

MANY OF THE BIGMOUTHS ARE JUST COWARDS WITH NO SPINE AND NO LIFE AND NO ASSETS WORTH GOING AFTER. GUYS WHO HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POST ATS AND AT POPFORUM.NET ARE TOO CLEARLY TOTAL LOSERS WITHOUT A LIFE.

 

Anyhow, good to see you around here Adrian, hope you don't make yourself scarce. Always enjoyed your posts, always gave me insight and enjoyment.

 

THANKS. I'LL MAKE SURE THAT CHECK DOESN'T BOUNCE. ;0)

 

PS.... what the heck were you doing in jail!! (feel free not to answer!!)

 

RECENTLY I WAS IN JAIL FROM AUGUST 25TH UNTIL DECEMBER 4TH, MOSTLY DUE TO MY STUPIDITY SURROUNDING MY NEED TO DO MORE RESEARCH IN THE AREA OF MY ABILITY TO DRINK ALCOHOL LIKE A NORMAL PERSON (I CAN'T) AND IN MY RECENT BAD DECISION TO PARTICIPATE IN THE MEDICAL MARIJUANA BUSINESS IN COLORADO, BEFORE I HAD MY LICENSE PLATES CHANGED FROM TEXAS TO COLORADO.

 

(AND I AM NOT "ASHAMED" OF ANYTHING I HAVE DONE, THAT'S WHY I HAVE USUALLY BEEN AN OPEN BOOK......I AM NOT AND HAVE NEVER BEEN A THIEF OR A LIAR OR ONE POSSESSED OF BAD MORALS....I MAY MAKE A BAD DECISION FROM TIME TO TIME, HOWEVER, I WOULD RATHER LIVE THE LIFE I HAVE LIVED, A LIFE OF ADVENTURE AND RISK TAKING, THAN LIVE BEHIND A COMPUTER SCREEN OR IN THE SAME PLACE AND TOWN DOING THE SAME THING FOR MY WHOLE LIFE. AS HELEN KELLER SAID, "LIFE IS EITHER A DARING ADVENTURE OR NOTHING." I AM PROUD TO HAVE HAD THE BALLS TO DO WHAT I HAVE DONE.)

 

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, JAIL IN COSTA RICA WAS A GOOD PRIMER FOR JAIL IN THE US WHICH IS MORE LIKE A VACATION. I READ OVER 10,000 PAGES WHILE IN JAIL MOST RECENTLY.

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Adrian, you lead an interesting life. Most of us would love, but probably couldn't afford a month in the life of Adrian Crane!!

 

Personally, I thought it was a shame when you decided to shut down Anaconda. I couldn't afford anything from your shop, but you were a heck of a business man and Brandon took some hellacious pictures!!

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Well, I hope that my next and newest venture in the world of coins will bring even more happiness to collectors and dealers who associate with it.

 

As I told you in a PM, and as I now state, my next venture should be made public in the next few weeks.

 

I am super excited about it.....every now and then I have a good idea, and this I think will be one super one for everyone interested in coins.

 

 

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My suspicions are that the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons that sling their libelous comments around don't have the moral capacity or fiber to do anything other than defend themselves.

 

I'm not taking sides, but how can you proclaim it as libel if the allegations are true? Truth is a good defense. I would hardly call a case against PCGS or angry posters for Mr. Keifer's death "actionable".

 

Edited to add: I express no opinion as to the veracity of the allegations, but will only acknowledge that some of the responses on the board ATS could be interpreted negatively.

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There is a misunderstanding here.....I do not know what comments were made about or to Cameron....my comment about "actionable comments" was a general one....that many things are said on message boards that are in fact actionable.

 

Unfortunately, many people think that anyone that brings a lawsuit is some kind of a scum bag. Maybe if more lawsuits were filed against people who make libelous statements, people would be more careful about what they say.

 

Again, I have no idea what anyone said about or to Cameron.

 

Finally, to repeat, many things have been said about me that really hurt AND were not true. While I never considered suicide, I can promise you that I still remember some of the things that were said YEARS ago.

 

Honestly, having untruthful things said about me was worse than the 103 days in jail with 91 days in solitary confinement and 37 of those in maximum security solitary confinement (one hour out a day, no TV, no commissary, no social interaction with others).

 

And, for what it's worth, I would rather be beat again by the police in Costa Rica than have slanderous untrue comments made about me.

 

Sorry, but maybe I just care too much about what people think about me WHEN IT ISN'T TRUE.

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I was just reading some of my old PMs ATS with Cameron, that brought back some memories. Quite a few made me laugh (he could be really funny), but two of them made my blood run cold in light of this week's events:

 

In August 2003 I had been giving him a hard time about something, just kidding around with him, and I become concerned that he was taking me serious. I sent him a PM letting him know that I was just kidding and that my comments were a joke. This was his reply:

 

"I don't take them serious. I would have killed myself by now if I did."

 

 

Then, just a short time later, both Cameron and I had posted responses to a thread by someone else who said he was going to take his life. Given this person's history we both assumed the guy was jerking our chains and posted remarks that I quickly realized were a mistake. I sent the following PM to Cameron (I have edited out the names of others involved):

 

"Cameron, ____ says ____ might be serious about this, I have edited the "____" thread, would you please do so as well. Put something there that will show concern for him."

 

This was Cameron's reply:

 

"You have to take threats like that seriously. Just think what it would feel like if we found out ____ killed himself today.

 

I edited and I am glad you did also."

 

That's a scary omen of his misfortune. I truly feel sorry for him and his family. I cannot imagine what it will be like for those two kids to grow up without a dad.

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There is a misunderstanding here.....I do not know what comments were made about or to Cameron....my comment about "actionable comments" was a general one....that many things are said on message boards that are in fact actionable.

 

Unfortunately, many people think that anyone that brings a lawsuit is some kind of a scum bag. Maybe if more lawsuits were filed against people who make libelous statements, people would be more careful about what they say.

 

Again, I have no idea what anyone said about or to Cameron.

 

Finally, to repeat, many things have been said about me that really hurt AND were not true. While I never considered suicide, I can promise you that I still remember some of the things that were said YEARS ago.

 

And, I'm no cat.

 

I can understand you being angry about false, damaging statements made. You shouldn't let it eat at you; I know that this is hard. It seems that it still does bother you given that you remember every word. You should acknowledge that not all buyers are rational, and sometimes when they make mistakes, they blame the seller whether the condemnation is warranted. Best of luck.

 

P.S. The actionable comment was also made in reference to another post that I thought was posted here by someone else - perhaps that was another site.

 

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Does anyone know whether a memorial fund has been established? I'm sure that his wife and kids will need some sort of financial support; business having been bad, he probably doesn't have much of an estate to support them while they grieve and it is questionable whether his family will receive any insurance proceeds given his suicide. I would hate to see his family without a father/husband and without a place to live. I also cannot imagine a grieving widow being forced to work around the clock to support two young kids.

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"You should acknowledge that not all buyers are rational"

 

I can't remember too many negative comments made by buyers of my coins. I would consider jealous losers who couldn't buy (read "afford") my coins and jealous stockbrokers with ex-wives from Chicago with miserable lives, to be my biggest libelers.

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Good to see you posting Adrian. Same for some of the older names that keep popping up. This is one of the good things that come from sad times like this.

Hope you guys hang out here a bit.

 

I have a sample slab Cameron gave me at a show some time back. It's now a treasure to me. It goes in my small group of coins that came from family and folks I will always hold a special spot in my heart for.

 

Merry Christmas guys.

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Does anyone know whether a memorial fund has been established? I'm sure that his wife and kids will need some sort of financial support; business having been bad, he probably doesn't have much of an estate to support them while they grieve and it is questionable whether his family will receive any insurance proceeds given his suicide. I would hate to see his family without a father/husband and without a place to live. I also cannot imagine a grieving widow being forced to work around the clock to support two young kids.

Memorial Fund Info ATS

 

 

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Well this is a real blast from the past!!

 

IT HAS BEEN A WHILE SINCE I SURFACED.

 

How you doing Adrian?

 

I AM DOING VERY WELL.

 

Anyhow, yea, I remember all the banter that was going on a year or two ago about you. A lot of it went well beyond what I thought should have gone on.

 

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SHORTAGE OF insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.....THAT'S WHY PERSONAL INJURY LAW IS SO GOOD TO MOST PI LAWYERS.......

 

At any rate, I have to agree that people are a lot more brave behind a keyboard.

 

I AM NOT INCLINED TOWARDS VIOLENCE HOWEVER MANY THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN SAID ABOUT ME IN CYBERSPACE WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN A CHALLENGE TO CONSENSUAL FISTICUFFS.

 

I have seen people go way too far over there, and it seems, if you are part of the "in crowd" you can get away with whatever you want even if it's against the established rules.

 

MANY OF THE BIGMOUTHS ARE JUST COWARDS WITH NO SPINE AND NO LIFE AND NO ASSETS WORTH GOING AFTER. GUYS WHO HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POST ATS AND AT POPFORUM.NET ARE TOO CLEARLY TOTAL LOSERS WITHOUT A LIFE.

 

Anyhow, good to see you around here Adrian, hope you don't make yourself scarce. Always enjoyed your posts, always gave me insight and enjoyment.

 

THANKS. I'LL MAKE SURE THAT CHECK DOESN'T BOUNCE. ;0)

 

PS.... what the heck were you doing in jail!! (feel free not to answer!!)

 

RECENTLY I WAS IN JAIL FROM AUGUST 25TH UNTIL DECEMBER 4TH, MOSTLY DUE TO MY STUPIDITY SURROUNDING MY NEED TO DO MORE RESEARCH IN THE AREA OF MY ABILITY TO DRINK ALCOHOL LIKE A NORMAL PERSON (I CAN'T) AND IN MY RECENT BAD DECISION TO PARTICIPATE IN THE MEDICAL MARIJUANA BUSINESS IN COLORADO, BEFORE I HAD MY LICENSE PLATES CHANGED FROM TEXAS TO COLORADO.

 

(AND I AM NOT "ASHAMED" OF ANYTHING I HAVE DONE, THAT'S WHY I HAVE USUALLY BEEN AN OPEN BOOK......I AM NOT AND HAVE NEVER BEEN A THIEF OR A LIAR OR ONE POSSESSED OF BAD MORALS....I MAY MAKE A BAD DECISION FROM TIME TO TIME, HOWEVER, I WOULD RATHER LIVE THE LIFE I HAVE LIVED, A LIFE OF ADVENTURE AND RISK TAKING, THAN LIVE BEHIND A COMPUTER SCREEN OR IN THE SAME PLACE AND TOWN DOING THE SAME THING FOR MY WHOLE LIFE. AS HELEN KELLER SAID, "LIFE IS EITHER A DARING ADVENTURE OR NOTHING." I AM PROUD TO HAVE HAD THE BALLS TO DO WHAT I HAVE DONE.)

 

FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, JAIL IN COSTA RICA WAS A GOOD PRIMER FOR JAIL IN THE US WHICH IS MORE LIKE A VACATION. I READ OVER 10,000 PAGES WHILE IN JAIL MOST RECENTLY.

This has to be the most unusual post I have ever read.

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I don't believe BNB was part of the attack of Cameron as he's been banned ATS and recently here. So I do not believe he had anything to do with the Cameron situation. PM me if you want some info on BNB, but I think it's been discussed to death pretty much everywhere.

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First, I would like to express my condolences to the Kiefer family regarding this tragic occurrence. It is a terrible loss for all.

 

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Mr .Kiefer personally except from what I have read on the internet.

 

I don't know whether certain postings regarding Cameron helped cause his demise. I certainly hope not, but in any case, I would advise against being too dependent on the internet.

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