What a big disappointment! Pcgs can't grade FS Jefferson nickels!

[Leothelion]

Pcgs continuelly shows that they can't grade full step Jefferson nickels! Check out the 54-S, worn obverse dies and yet it gets graded MS65. If these are the kind of coins that reside in those top registry nickel sets, it's just too unbelieveable! Please excuse me and no offense intended to the collector of these coins but you have been misled into believeing that these are high grade and accurately graded coins! Take the time and check out each coin! If you have any questions concerning the grades assigned to them, I'll be happy to discuss them. There's just too much to write for now. Everything from nicks in the main focal areas to weak strikes drop everyone of those grades by one to 3 points. I really had my hopes up in finding something in that group because of the posted grades but there's very little of interest for me.

 

Leo

[spy88]

Leo, I had the high bid on this one (for awhile) when it first came up for bids. Also had high bids in on 8 others, but last week, I got run over by a semi when other bidders took action on them. I am no longer the high bidder on ANY of them. Cannot justify the prices for them!

 

As for the 54-S, I think it truly is a FS but is very hard to tell from Heritage pics---the bottom picture of the coin (there are two sets) is better then the top one but still leaves doubt in my mind regardless of PCGS calling it FS. The MS65 grade is also suspect but again, the pics are all we have to go on and a sore point with me. I have made my feelings known to certain individuals @ Heritage and have tried to get back to one that called me last week and wished to discuss it with him.

Will try again today.

 

David;)

[CarlWohlforth]

There are very few 1954-S PCGS FS Jeffersons. It sounds like a great opportunity for you Leo. You are familar with how PCGS grades by now so all you have to do is find a 1954-S in 63 with 5 steps and you could make another 65 FS and earn thousands!

[Hoot]

Interesting. I have a '54-S that's every bit that coin and it also has equal the steps (5 fs with weakness under pillar 3) and PCGS recently graded it MS64, no FS designation. I agree with you Leo that PCGS can be inconsistent on Jefferson grades and designations. I have resubmitted a fair number of coins (20?) 2 or 3 times and have had grades come back +/- 1 point several times and it sometimes takes them 2 or 3 times looking at the same coin for PCGS graders to recognize the FS. Go figure ($$$). To be fair, however, I find their greatest inconsistency in the assignment of FS, as most of the time their grades remain the same. And every time but 1 (a 1924 buff) that I've cracked and submitted a PCGS graded coin to NGC or vice-versa, it's come back the same grade from the opposing company.

 

As for that '54-S in the Heritage auction (see pic below), it is definitely weakly struck and has some badly placed nicks - probably a 64 by market standards. And it also probably only has weakly defined steps, as all of the FS examples of this issue do. This is simply a series that most people are not familiar with (including many graders IMO)in terms of all of the issue-specific nuances for determining grade and step condition. We have a long way to go with this series before it is well understood, both at home and in the grading room. Just my opinion.

 

Hey! I put the pic on as an attachment!!!

 

Hoot

[MAULEMALL]

Now THATS a picture Hoot.

[Hoot]

Now THATS a picture Hoot.

 

(Straight from Heritage!)

 

Hoot

[gmarguli]

Pcgs continuelly shows that they can't grade full step Jefferson nickels!

 

The confusion in the marketplace is that PCGS FS = FIVE Steps and not Full Steps. They should use 5S as their designator.

 

If these are the kind of coins that reside in those top registry nickel sets, it's just too unbelieveable!

 

They are not. The people who collect the top registry sets coins have great taste and spend countless hours assembling only the truly finest sets. They couldn't care less about the slabbed grade as they only want the finest actual coin. They will be remembered at the end of time for having built the finest collection of whatever. No true registry set collector would ever buy any slabbed coin that was less than exceptional and at the very least solid for the slabbed grade.

[truthteller]

Designations and attributions will one day be the demise of PCGS, from a liability point of view.

 

 

TRUTH

[cladking]

 

They are not. The people who collect the top registry sets coins have great taste and spend countless hours assembling only the truly finest sets. They couldn't care less about the slabbed grade as they only want the finest actual coin. They will be remembered at the end of time for having built the finest collection of whatever. No true registry set collector would ever buy any slabbed coin that was less than exceptional and at the very least solid for the slabbed grade.

 

I used to believe that this was always true but have come to see that at least some registry participants care far more about the third party opinion or the employer of the third party opiner than they do about the condition of the coin. This may be difficult for we mere mortals to comprehend, but to each his own, I guess.

 

This thread is very difficult to read.

[gmarguli]

I used to believe that this was always true but have come to see that at least some registry participants care far more about the third party opinion or the employer of the third party opiner than they do about the condition of the coin. This may be difficult for we mere mortals to comprehend, but to each his own, I guess.

 

Anyone only needs to attend a major auction where a couple of registry sets are being auctioned to get a wake-up call. I've seen some registry sets where the quality of the coins were awful. Sure the surfaces might be mark free, but who wants a coin with spotted brown surfaces and a few well placed black spots. Others are filled with MAXED OUT coins and coins that make you wonder how they ever got in that grade in the first place. Where is the pride in owning the only MS67 when you look at the coin and realize that it should be in an MS66 slab and that most of the MS66s out there are better than it?

 

And admittedly, there have been some sets where most of the coins were very nice.

[Leothelion]

There are a few veteran collectors who have very nice collections in the registries, I'll grant everyone that. But it's a shame when the pops get obscured with inconsistent grading.

 

David

An interesting thing about worn and flat dies is that when the metal flow has no where to go but to that area that receives the less wear, this is why we have misnomers with full steps.

 

Carl

I never sold you a pcgs graded coin!

 

Hoot

Oh so true! But the guy with the fully strucked MS65 54-S just got burned when pcgs put that coin in a MS65 slab. I have hopes, althought quite slim, that whoever ends up with some of these coins will send them back to pcgs for regrade and reimbursement, however that works, it's just a waste of time.

 

Also Hoot, could you crop that pic and move it over to the left about 4 feet!

 

Truth

See Hoot's response! I agree!

 

The 1948 grades MS64 with that hit by the eye. The MS67 1938-D and 1940 look great! The 1950 is a MS66 with all the cheek chatter and other nicks. Same goes for the 1958-D. The 1940 and 40-D MS65 are overgraded, too many hits. The 43/2-P looks ok, maybe low end for the grade.

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

The MS67 44-D grades MS65 with all the cheek chatter and hits around the ear.

The center buildings on both 45-P's look weak. The 1st looks markfree while the second has more than the discription leads you to believe.

The 46-D/D has too many ticks and markings to be a MS66.

The 49-D/S would make a nice MS65 coin.

The 51 looks nice and virtually markfree.

The 54-S.....sucks!

The 55-D grades MS63, lotta marks there!

 

1956-D 5C MS66 Full Steps PCGS. A full point finer than the example in the Trane Collection, this piece is tied with only three other pieces at the top of the Condition Census. Light, hazy gray, rose, and lime-green patina covers each side with strong underlying mint luster. Although weakly impressed full step coins are available of this issue, fully struck, high-end Gems such as this piece are very challenging

 

Tell us about the obverse strike again! And the carbon spots! Grades MS64 at best.

 

The 1959, wow! Pcgs will put the MS66 grade on anything! MS64.

The 1960 grades MS64. See attachment! That coin grades MS65.

 

Leo

[CarlWohlforth]

Here is a Jeff PCGS graded MS64 Full Steps. This is one of the latest die state Jeffs I've seen.

 

 

It does seem to have at least 5 steps to me. I like the coin because it is interesting. I wouldn't know how to grade a coin from such a degraded die.

 

I did buy a raw coin from Leo that Leo said was from Adolf Weiss the founder of the PAK club for full step Jeffs. According to Leo Adolf wrote MS 65 FS on the label; PCGS wrote 63 FS on the label. I like it more for the history than for the quality.

[Hoot]

Great 1960 Leo! That beats the hell outta the coin in the Heritage auction. That coin (Heritage) is gonna sell for a fortune. All of those coins in that lot are already out the roof. Arf.

 

Carl - That die fatigued coin is like all others for grading - as struck, definitional weakness does not preclude a choice or gem grade. Think of it as a bit of an error coin! I think this gets around to what we've discussed ad nauseum, that the FS attribution tells you very little about the strike of the coin (only a bit about its steps).

 

Hoot

[jom]

Anyone only needs to attend a major auction where a couple of registry sets are being auctioned to get a wake-up call. I've seen some registry sets where the quality of the coins were awful

 

For instance the Walker set that was sold by Heritage at a recent Long Beach show (sometime last year I think). It was a "registry" set but other than that name it was simply mediocrity at its finest. It would NEVER "tie the shoes" of the infamous James Pryor set...not even close.

 

I officially wrote off "Registry" sets as a joke after I viewed that set....

 

jom

[chinook]

Carl, I like the look of that nickel. Nice

[Wondercoin]

Hi guys. I wanted to respond to this thread - NOT TO DEFEND PCGS, but to DEFEND the coin in question. I have no ownership interest whatsoever in this coin, nor did I ever buy it, or sell it, etc. I did send it over to Heritage for the auction, however, on behalf of the collector who owns the coin, as part of my overall consignment package to Heritage for the sale.

 

THIS COIN IS THE FORMER ANACS-MS66FS 1954(s) SPECIMEN. The collector reluctantly agreed to accept the crossover AT THE LOWER GRADE FROM PCGS. I personally submitted the coin myself on behalf of the collector and personally requested the lower grade. This coin is simply an INCREDIBLE 1954(s) MS65FS specimen in my opinion. THE STEPS ARE THERE AND THE COIN IS SUPER CLEAN AND NICE!! Personally, I could not argue strongly against the MS66FS grade which ANACS previously gave this coin. Yes, the obverse die state perhaps militated against the MS66FS grade, BUT THIS COIN IS ALL THERE "AND A BAG OF CHIPS". PCGS in their STRICT MODE would only grade this coin MS65FS. Perhaps "PCGS can't grade FS Jeffs" could be asserted by some (not me, because I am OK with the MS65FS++ grade) in opposition of the coin NOT getting the MS66FS status. But, to suggest PCGS "can't grade" these Jeffs because they DOWNGRADED the ANACS-MS66FS grade to only PCGS-MS65FS is - well, let's just say disingenuous at best. And, what does that say about ANACS? Again, in my opinion, nothing negative against ANACS because this coin is an INCREDIBLE gem++ FS coin.

 

I hope many of you get to see this 1954(s) nickel in person, because it is one of the great 20th century strike rarities IN TRUE GEM FS grade in my opinion.

 

Wondercoin

[braddick]

Mitch- is the 54-S the toughest of all the Jeffersons in FS?

Also, if this one were to go to NGC, would they award it FiveSteps or SixSteps?

[Wondercoin]

Pat: The 54(s) is right up there in the top handful or so of great 20th century strike rarities, but the 53(s), 60(d) and 61(d) in true MS FS are probably somewhat tougher. And, of course, a few dates in the 1965-1970 era are killers as well. I would personally be surprised if any of the dates I mentioned above exist in true 6 step gem. Usually a solid 5 - 51/2 steppers is what dreams are made of.

 

Wondercoin

[Hoot]

Mitch - If the coin in question is as nice as you say (and yes! you have had the priviledge of seeing it in person), then Heritage has done a worse-than-usual job of the scan (which would not surprise me). Also, why didn't they add the photo in with the scan, as they have for far less difficult coins, in terms of strike rarity? This is a shame at the least. I take your word for it that it's a nice coin in person, but here are some further thoughts...

 

I can tell you for certain that PCGS has never awarded better than an MS64 to a coin that I've submitted with such obvious die deterioration. Not only is the strike weak, but look at the severe deterioration in the lettering. There's obvious die deterioration doubling in the date. These facts alone make the MS65 grade the absolute high-end for this coin. However, the hits that show in their scan to very noticable areas take this coin down a notch to a 64 at best, according to the scan.

 

I emphasize that grading from a lousy scan is dubious at best, but this one is quite confusing.

 

On the issue of the FS designation, PCGS has made themselves inconsistent with assigning the FS designation, and I know this from direct experience. I have had to submit clean, clear full step coins to them two and even three times in order for the designation to be placed on the insert. This is quite irritating. I just got back a 1948-S 5-3/4 steps that they have now graded twice as MS66. I'm glad the grade is consistent, but for them to have missed the steps twice is unacceptable. I've sent the coin now to NGC sice they are now designating 5FS. Back to a 54-S... I have a 54-S now out with NGC that is 5FS and every bit the strike of the coin depicted by Heritage. PCGS graded it MS64 and left off the FS designation. It deserves the 5FS designation, although the steps are weak under pillar 3, but it's no more than an MS64 due to the overall weak strike. Is it rare? Hell yes, but that does not mean that it deserves a grade that is unwarranted.

 

Mark

[Wondercoin]

Mark: Again, I believe ANACS graded the coin MS66FS and the coin sold for "huge money" in that ANACS holder by a well respected dealer (by "huge" I mean well more than I have seen most PCGS-MS65FS coins of this date ever sell for). I suspect the collector will do OK, because this coin WILL NOT trade as a low end MS65FS specimen, but (if it sells here), rather the STRONG QUALITY GEM FS coin it is. If and when you see the coin, you will see why I believe the coin was once a MS66FS in an (well respected) ANACS holder. I agree with you - there is the danger of "micro-grading" a coin from a scan, no less this Heritage scan. Again, if this coin sells in the auction, expect to see close to a "world record price" paid for this 54(s) Jeff in 65FS grade. And, again, although I can not reveal exact personal information, rest assured I believe the coin previously traded at "big" money in the ANACS-MS66FS holder. And, yes, the die state could arguably hold the coin back in my book to MS65FS status as I previously stated. But, due to the overall qualities of the coin, ANACS was comfortable bumping it to the MS66FS grade - a grade that is by no means a great gift from the heavens above, but, certainly the highest potential "maxed out" grade on this particular coin.

 

Also, good luck with your submission to NGC. And, that 48(s) Jeff with 5 3/4 steps in MS66 sounds AWESOME!! What a great coin and much underappreciated at this point.

 

Wondercoin

[Leothelion]

Click to view supersized image




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LeoOops, I should add, this one's not mine anymore.

[Leothelion]

Mark: Again, ANACS graded the coin MS66FS and the coin sold for "huge money" in that ANACS holder by a well respected dealer (by "huge" I mean well more than I have seen most PCGS-MS65FS coins of this date ever sell for). I suspect the collector will do OK, because this coin WILL NOT trade as a low end MS65FS specimen, but (if it sells here), rather the STRONG QUALITY GEM FS coin it is. If and when you see the coin, you will see why the coin was once a MS66FS in an (well respected) ANACS holder. I agree with you - there is the danger of "micro-grading" a coin from a scan, no less this Heritage scan. Again, if this coin sells in the auction, expect to see close to a "world record price" paid for this 54(s) Jeff in 65FS grade. And, again, although I can not reveal exact personal information, rest assured the coin previously traded at "big" money in the ANACS-MS66FS holder. And, yes, the die state could arguably hold the coin back in my book to MS65FS status as I previously stated. But, due to the overall qualities of the coin, ANACS was comfortable bumping it to the MS66FS grade - a grade that is by no means a great gift from the heavens above, but, certainly the highest potential "maxed out" grade on this particular coin. Also, good luck with your submission to NGC. And, that 48(s) Jeff with 5 3/4 steps in MS66 sounds AWESOME!! What a great coin and much underappreciated at this point. Wondercoin

MS-64 This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "64" (the numerical designation of that grade). This grade is also called "Borderline Gem" at times, as well as "Very Choice BU." There will be no more than a couple of significant marks or, possibly, a number of light abrasions. The overall visual impact of the coin will be positive. The strike will range from average to full and the luster breaks will be minimal.See Also -- Mint State MS-65 This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "65" (the numerical designation of that grade). This grade is also called "Gem" or "Gem Mint State" or "Gem BU." There may be scattered marks, hairlines or other defects, but they will be minor. Any spots on copper coins will also be minor. The coin must be well struck with positive (average or better) eye appeal. This is a NICE coin!See Also -- Mint State Gem Gem BUHere's another 1954-S,

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This is as close I could get to the steps for now.

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The two 1954-S Jefferson nickels are accurately graded MS64 by ANACS due to the weak obverse strikes. I really don't like showing my FS nickels as it seems like a waste of my time. Enjoy the pics!Leo

[Leothelion]

Hi guys. I wanted to respond to this thread - NOT TO DEFEND PCGS, but to DEFEND the coin in question. I have no ownership interest whatsoever in this coin, nor did I ever buy it, or sell it, etc. I did send it over to Heritage for the auction, however, on behalf of the collector who owns the coin, as part of my overall consignment package to Heritage for the sale.

 

THIS COIN IS THE FORMER ANACS-MS66FS 1954(s) SPECIMEN. The collector reluctantly agreed to accept the crossover AT THE LOWER GRADE FROM PCGS. I personally submitted the coin myself on behalf of the collector and personally requested the lower grade. This coin is simply an INCREDIBLE 1954(s) MS65FS specimen in my opinion. THE STEPS ARE THERE AND THE COIN IS SUPER CLEAN AND NICE!! Personally, I could not argue strongly against the MS66FS grade which ANACS previously gave this coin. Yes, the obverse die state perhaps militated against the MS66FS grade, BUT THIS COIN IS ALL THERE "AND A BAG OF CHIPS". PCGS in their STRICT MODE would only grade this coin MS65FS. Perhaps "PCGS can't grade FS Jeffs" could be asserted by some (not me, because I am OK with the MS65FS++ grade) in opposition of the coin NOT getting the MS66FS status. But, to suggest PCGS "can't grade" these Jeffs because they DOWNGRADED the ANACS-MS66FS grade to only PCGS-MS65FS is - well, let's just say disingenuous at best. And, what does that say about ANACS? Again, in my opinion, nothing negative against ANACS because this coin is an INCREDIBLE gem++ FS coin.

 

I hope many of you get to see this 1954(s) nickel in person, because it is one of the great 20th century strike rarities IN TRUE GEM FS grade in my opinion.

 

Wondercoin

 

Interestingly, I just got off the phone with the collector who owned

this FORMER ANACS-MS66FS 1954(s) SPECIMEN and he repeatedly said, "that's not my coin!" Unless ANACS had graded a second one, I'm

not aware of it but then again, I could be the one that's full of it!

This collector asked me if I had believed for one second that he would have owned such a coin. And I said "no" adding that this was the reason why I called. I've known this collector and dealer for several years, from whom I have bought many great coins. It's been a couple of years since we've talked, but I couldn't believe that coin was his! I know the quality FS nickels he has.

I won't say here what all he had to say about that coin other than that we had a real good laugh about it and the auction!

Perhaps this collector is mistaken about this coin being his but I doubt it!

Maybe someone fed Mitch a line of bull?

Did ANACS grade two 54-S ANACS 66FS?

Is someone trying to make me look bad?

Did heritage put up the wrong picture? Just a thought!

What other senario is there?

Someone is feeding someone alot of bull or ANACS graded a second coin at that level.

I wonder what the story is behind that coin? And believe me, I'm still laughing folks!

 

Leo

[Wondercoin]

Leo: I have the ANACS (former) serial number of the MS66FS 1954(s) nickel here with me (and, of course, I know the name of the seller and the sales price, which I will not reveal here as that is personal information). I suspect your collector friend also has a serial number from his old coin, which I assume he sold? And, since I have the serial number (and the backup information), I can only assume your friend's coin was sold to my customer and/or perhaps there is a second ANACS-MS66FS specimen (or perhaps a different PCGS-MS65FS was consigned to the auction by my collector - I am open to that possibility, as I do not dispute what your collector/dealer friend believes is the case and it is possible PCGS-MS65FS specimens got switched. I do know for a fact the ANACS-MS66FS is currently in a PCGS-MS65FS holder, as I crossed the coin for the collector myself with PCGS. Could a different 54(s) nickel in PCGS-MS65FS have been consigned to the auction - hey, I guess it is possible. So, let's make this simple - email me your friend's phone number (mjcapc@aol.com) and I'll call him and I'll give him the serial number of the ANACS-MS66FS coin which I crossed over to PCGS-MS65FS. We can then discuss the coins and see if his coin was the coin I crossed on behalf of my customer (that he obviously sold) and whether that coin ended up in the Heritage auction. Then, there will be no mystery anymore.

 

Wondercoin

[spy88]

Just for all the FS Jeff nuts around here (including myself), I thought I would post the going bids for what is up @ auction with Heritage Portland Sale.

 

1938-D MS67FS--->$1500. (previous high sell was $1380.)

1939-D Rev/40 MS66Fs--->$3000. (includes 1963 MS66FS)

1940 MS67FS--->$1650. (no MS67FS has ever been auctioned by Heritage)

1945-P MS67FS--->$3200. (same for these next two coins)

1945-P MS67FS--->$5000. (second one)

1946 MS66FS--->$2900. (includes 1957 MS66FS)

1948 MS66FS--->$1700. (last 66 sold for $891. 20 months ago)

1950 MS67FS--->$6000. (no previous auctions for a 67)

1951 MS66FS--->$2050. (last one sold for $1380. 20 months ago)

1951-S MS66FS--->$1200. (last one sold for $1207. 14 months ago)

1954-S MS65FS--->$8000. (a 64 sold for $1955. last year)

1955-D MS64FS--->$1200. (last one sold for $529. 12 months ago)

1956-D MS66FS--->$3400. (no previous sales for a 66)

1958-D MS67FS--->$2250. (last one sold for $310. 18 months ago in NGC slab)

1959 MS66FS--->$1800. (no previous records for a 66)

1960 MS65FS--->$2600. (no previous records for this coin)

 

All with 4 days, 8 hours to go.

At the present bids, there is a total of $47,450 being spent on 80c worth of nickels!

Averaging just under $3000. each. I'm willing to bet that there are only a few different bidders with deep pockets going after all these coins!

(Wish I was one of them!)!

 

David

 

By the way---anybody have any idea how much a 1968-D MS66/67FS would be worth?????

[Wondercoin]

Spy88 - Don't forget the "buried treasure" in that 1939(d) nickel lot! Check out the lot!

 

Wondercoin

[EVillageProwler]

Can we assume that ANACS' pop data is just as inaccurate as PCGS' and NGC's?

 

EVP

[spy88]

So noted and added, Wondercoin! Same for the 46!

 

David

[Leothelion]

DavidIf you're referring to the 1963 that's included with the 39-D rev40, it's not a MS66 coin! Too many hits on that one. I wouldn't grade it any higher than a MS64.Also want to add the weakness in the strike on the ear and at the top of Jefferson's hair.

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Leo