What will pop the toned coin bubble?

[Guest]

A post from accross the street. Are naturally toned coins overpriced?

All answers welcome.

 

Coinholeio

[Tradedollarnut]

depends on the coin. depends on the price. who can generalize?

[jtryka]

Well, I think these things tend to move in cycles, right now toning is popular, a few years ago, white coins were in. As far as this being a bubble, I think that is too strong a word to describe the current strength among toned coins. Until the tastes of collectors shift back, I think toned coins have a while to run, especially since so many nice toned coins were "whitened" over the last few years, such that original toned coins will likely always maintain a solid premium. The only thing that could destroy the market would be a big AT scandal of some sort that would drive some of the newer collectors out of that segment of the market. Just my opinion though, and I don't even like toning very much, so take that for what it's worth.

[Oldtrader3]

I think that it is hard to generalize about toning. IMHO, Seated and Classical coins are generally toned if they have not been dipped, although there are exceptions to this. It would be pretty unusual for a 150 year old silver coin not to have toned during this period. Some series coins, like silver Trimes, benefit from colorful toning. These toned Trimes can have amazingly beautiful natural toning.

 

So, I do not think that toned older coins are a fad. I think that they are expected to be toned.

[michael]

for me there are many dipped white coins and toned coins and thick skinned natural "white" coins

 

if a coin is extraordinary and is toned or original white this never ever goes out of style maybe it doesnot get the hype as much as it does

currently but it never goes out of style and maybe there are lots of average so-so toned coins that are benefitting

from this so called hot hot market in toned coins but after all is said and done

 

really great coins be it toned dipped blast white or original white never dipped coins if a coin has the look of

extraordinary eye appeal with monster exceptional qualities this is always in style and never goes out of fashion

 

i am sure maybe it might be a little more popular at times and garner more attention but such is life

 

collectors like students going from grade school to high school to higher education this is a process and as a collector

matures he she finds themselves apprecaiting toned coin really exceptuional toned coins never touched screwed

with coins original white coins think skinned coins coins with really great attributes like deep cameo proof coins

made that way to show off the mintmasters work well coins like these never ever go out of style and

 

on a journey a numismatist collector wahtever you call it delelops an apprecaition as such which time and experience

only seem to hone to a greater apprecaition and desire of such things of beauty and rarity that are a cut above

the rest of the 99% of the average stuff yes stuff that is out there!

 

and of course coins like this cause a desire hence demand hense higher prices always have and always will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

sincerely michael

[michael]

also be it an original white coin or a great!! monster fantasticly toned coin or a blast white ultra cameo proof coin

if they have the look and are extraordinary looking to the eye these coins will always be in demand

and will rise over 99% of just the stuff that is out there

 

make no mistake about it when someone is a true collector and starts to put time effort into coins they develop

an apprecaition of such

 

needful things things of rarity and exceptional buauty that stand heads and tails about the rest! and this a small

percentage of what is shown on the boards touted as great coins are really for the most part are not

few are most are not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

abd so creates its own market

 

it does take time and expertise to appreactie these coins and nothing in life for the most part comes easy

even the symphony conductor didnot get where he is just by taking one course but years of study and practise

and many hours rehearseing

 

just like in coins study apprecaition looking at many coins and developing a sixth sense of when a coin is a

really great piece

 

a metamorphsis so to speak and that is great!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

sincerely michael

[BillJones]

It's my view that most of the overpriced toned coins are in the Morgan Dollar market. One can still buy attractively toned coins in other series at reasonable money.

 

What will cause the toned dollar market bouble to pop? I'd say it will take a breather when some people discover that they have purchased AT coins in and out of the holders, and they find they can't sell them for prices that support the current retail madness. Until then I'd say watch from the sidelines. Like every other fad the interest will decline and with it the prices.

[coinman1794]

Originally and attractively toned coins are not overpriced. They are very hard to find. I would definitely take a nicely toned coin over a dipped out white coin (Original white is a different story. It's also extremely rare, I might add!) I would prefer "original and attractive" over "stripped by acid" any day!

 

There are too many dipped and overdipped coins out there. And, the overdipped coins are not penalized with lower grades, for some reason! Some of the grading services seem to think "white surfaces" are a justification for a coin to recieve a higher grade, no matter how the surfaces became white, or how much luster is left. A lot of the these over dipped white coins reside in MS65 and MS66 slabs, and not only are they lackluster, but they are also quite beat up for the grade. I can see the justification for a coin with a few marks to recieve a higher grade if the luster and eye appeal make up for those marks, but the coins I'm talking about are ugly in all categories. I am finding ALARMING numbers of them out there!

[gmarguli]

It's my view that most of the overpriced toned coins are in the Morgan Dollar market.

 

I'd guess that most of the AT coins in slabs are also Morgans. The grading services seem to allow a lot of questionable color Morgans in their slabs. I've seen some that looked like an oil slick.

[toneddollars]

Toned coins might just be on the upswing in recent times, but I will venture a guess that attractive toned coins will always be in demand. The eye appeal is what seperates these coins from there white sisters and brothers. You can place four or five white coins with a toned coin and most everyone will be drawn to the toned coin first. I'm sure that if all things being egual and the white coins are just as nice (eye appeal) wise. Everyone would admire the beauty of all the coins but the highest premium would be paid for the toned coin. This is just my opinion from observations of mine at shows big and small.

[Coinosaurus]

Tastes change over time - sometimes toned coins are in vogue, sometimes it's the white stuff. So buy what you like

 

What is indisputable is that toning constitutes chemical damage to the surface of the coin. So I could see a trend occurring where original white coins demand huge premiums because of the total originality of the coins. To borrow an analogy from comic books, you can always go from an unrestored copy to a restored copy, but never vice versa.

 

In other words, you can go from a 100% original white coin to a toned coin, but not the other way. Now, there are a lot of shades of gray here, because if a coin is dipped only once or twice in a 100 years, chances are you can't tell the difference between that and an untouched coin.

 

 

[gmarguli]

What is indisputable is that toning constitutes chemical damage to the surface of the coin.

 

Damage!?

[GDJMSP]

Damage!?

 

Technically he is correct. For toning is nothing more and nothing less than a form of oxidation on the surface of a coin. And oxidation on any but the noble metals is usually referred to as rust. Which is universally thought of as damage.

 

This not to say that it makes a coin any less desirable - or any more. That depends on the owner of the coin since beauty lies in the beholder only.

 

 

[braddick]

Then, what's it called when you remove this "damage" (ie: toning) from the coin with a dip?

[Rickdogg]

[Rickdogg]

[BillJones]

At the risk of opening a can a worms there was an "expert" who editorialized about this on the front page of Coin World a decade. He called it a "news article" but it was just his way of stiring the pot and getting some publicity for himself. He compared silver toning to iron rust and scared everyone into thinking that all toned coins would eventually turn pitch black.

 

Given proper storeage and given that the coin is not coated with a corrosive chemical agent, toned silver coins should remain stable for as long as you own the piece. I've had toned coins for over 30 years, and they have not changed. In fact I have owned the 1805 dime that I use as my avator for 30+ years, and it still looks that same as the day I bought it.

 

In a sense toning is "damage" because it is an oxidized for of the silver alloy. In another sense it is also a protection agent because once the toning is formed, the coin with proper care will look the same for many years. The same cannot be said for "virgin" white silver surfaces which can tone just like your wife's sterling silver, or dipped out coins that have had "virgin" surfaces exposed. Those coins can tone and sometimes the results are not attractive.

[EVillageProwler]

I suspect that Greg's objection to the use of the word ``damage'' is similar to mine...

 

While technically one can refer to toning as damage, I would refrain from doing so because the word damage as used in our natural langauges carries with it a negative connotation.

 

Toning, on the other, carries with it a positive connotation for many a coin collector.

 

If one really wants to be technical about it, then one should simply refer to it as ``silver sufide oxidation'' or whatever...

 

EVP

 

[ArtR]

BillJones

Well stated, I have found this to be a true statement. I have quite a few Morgans that were stored for several years in capitol holders, and than put into NGC holders in 1989 and as of this time have seen no noticeable change in the toning, except for some of the white reverses taken on a light gold tone at the peripies which I am sure was the results of the inserts that NGC used in this time frame.

Proper storage in a fairly controlled environment will slow up or stop the toning process.

[GDJMSP]

Then, what's it called when you remove this "damage" (ie: toning) from the coin with a dip?

 

It is just more damage - but of a different nature. I am definitely not in favor of dipping coins. I learned that lesson over 40 yrs ago.

 

Calling toning "damage" is a matter of semantics - that's why they call it toning in the first place. If they called it damage - who would want to buy or own the coin ? But call it toning - and that's a coin of a different color - literally.

 

I was in no way trying to degrade toned coins by my comment - I was merely stating facts. Whether a person likes toned coins or not - and whether toning adds or detracts from the value of a given coin - is up to the individual to decide for themselves. Both points of view can be right - or wrong - but only for that individual.

[keithdagen]

What is indisputable is that toning constitutes chemical damage to the surface of the coin.

 

What is indisputable to me is that untoned coins all look generic, and toning is the main thing that gives the coins character.

[Coinosaurus]

I should have added, I like toned coins as much as anyone, but I am not going to deceive myself about what is physically happening to the coin. This is why I now store all my toned coins in Intercept shields, so that they do not progress from their current (attractive) state. I had noticed a few of my coins in the bank vault changing colors over the years.

 

Yes, it probably would be more appropriate to refer to this as oxidation rather than damage (no reason to throw around excessively negative conotations about very attractive coins).

[Guest]

Hello to all and thanks,

Thanks for all the responces. They are very informative and help me mold my opinion. I do want to learn more.

 

 

[Sunnywood]

There is no "toned coin bubble." A bubble refers to a temporary and insupportable run-up in prices, usually due to hype and trendy fads. However, attractively rainbow-toned coins have ALWAYS brought strong premiums. This is no "bubble."

 

If anything, the only bubbles around are the markets for dipped "black and white" DCAM/UCAM coins which have been over-hyped by certain dealers; and modern Registry coins, especially those whose pops may yet increase dramatically over time as submission continue to roll in.

 

Sunnywood

 

[enriched-migration]

Sunnywood,

 

As a holder of a $3000 toned common-date Morgan that caused a bit of a stir at the OTHER site, your words are welcomed news. I don't know what to do with that thing other than look at it from time to time. I'm not a toned expert but liked what I saw. The guy had a firm price-I had coins to trade. Deal was done.

 

However, I think there is some "hype" in the toning conundrum. Some dealers are charging exorbitant prices for ultra-high grade beauties. Apparently, some are making a tremendous profit. What do you think the future hold for the prices of these items?

 

e aka b

[michael]

for me there is no bubble for dipped black and white ultra/deep cameo coins pre 1915 as long as the coin

has the right look

and is s solid deep cameo both sides to stellar deep cameo

 

and the coin has tremendous eye appeal i think these coins will only get much better as they are really rare

i am sure more will be graded as such but still the coins will be rare

 

but the coins will have to be all there and have the look and eye appeal to match the deep/ultra cameo designation

of these coins

 

the problem is that there are many graded so called deep/ultra cameo coins pre 1915 out there that are not

deep/ultra as the holder states and even if some are they are ugly eye appealling coins and do not have the

right look

 

and yes some have paid fantastic monster premiums for coins that are not monsters!

 

they will make these premiums up but it will not be in the short term!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

and the larger coins like seated dollars and other larger demonation seated/barber coins in the higher grades

67 and above in deep /ultra cameo bringing huge money and are not good values at all especially as they tend

to be the same usual dates

 

now rarer dates like for example post 1900 barber quarters in deep/ultra cameo are super rare!

 

lib nicks in deep/ultra cameo are super rare moreso in 66 ND ABOVE! for most all dates!

 

early dated pre 1870 cameo deep cameo dates seated quarters!

 

these cent nicks in the 1870's deep cameo

 

seared dimes in gem deep cameo are rare!

 

sincerely michael

 

 

 

 

[michael]

i guress all in all it really depends on each coin on a sight seen basis the overall look of the coin

how deep the contrast and mirrors are and what the price is!

 

if the look of the coin is monster great and the mirrors are deep and the contrast really deep and strong both sides

the the price is within reason then this coin would be a great value for me! for pre 1915 deep cameo coins!

 

sincerely michael

[keithdagen]

Micheal,

 

Not sure, but I would bet that Sunnywood is referring to the silver proof coins of the 1930's through 1960's. Those seem to bring extreme dollar values for CAM and DCAM relative to the scarcity of the coins.

[michael]

thanks keith! i thought it was proof coins deep cameo pre 1915

 

maybe .........maybe not i guess until it is clarified we will never know!

 

sincerely michael

[Sunnywood]

Hi Guys,

 

My comments relating to over-hyped DCAM's pertain to both eras ... whether it be proof seated dollars or Franklin halves !!!

 

I especially dislike lionizing "black & white" dipped proofs of the 19th century, as these are in almost every case not original, and unnatural in appearance -- a condition achieved by dipping.

 

Anyway it's all just my (usually not-so-humble ) opinion.

 

Sunnywood