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pattern dollars and halves 1836 to 1839

Started by michael,

29 posts in this topic

michael

michael

Posted
Posted

a small monograph

 

there is no more interesting or even rare set of pattern dollars and halves then those of 1836 38 and 39

 

most all were engraved by christian gobrecht and william kneass

 

on a side note ///// kneass did the revised later date coronet cents of 1837 to 39 which in my opinion are the most beautiful of the large cents////

 

the first pattern dollars of the series was the great flying eagle design of 1836 by gobrecht and bearing his name in small letters on the base of the coin under liberty

the eagle was surrounded by stars

 

this was curiously from a sketch by thomas sully the famous painter and titian peale another great painter

 

this drawing is still in the mint at philadelphia

this variety with the reeded edge is really very rare and yet the commonest of this series comes with a plain edge

 

this plain edge piece also comes struck in copper

 

 

michael

 

stay tuned for more choice morsels of numismatic lore

 

or just ignore!! lol

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

Nice thread, Michael. I once very briefly talked about this when I showed off my Gobrecht and a couple of SD's at a past meeting of the NY Numismatic Club.

 

If I ever become a member, I know that the Treasurer will force me to make a presentation. I may have to bore the audience about Gobrecht, et al., and show some slides of some really cool coins.

 

laugh.gif

 

EVP

 

PS It would be nice if Boiler can chime in here to show us what kind of patterns he has from this time period and talk a little bit about the anti-Gobrecht politics going on then.

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
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the first pattern dollars of the series was the great flying eagle design of 1836 by gobrecht and bearing his name in small letters on the base of the coin under liberty

 

Not sure exactly which design the above description references. Which came first - the 'name under base' or the 'name on base'? Is the 'name on base' 1836 really a pattern or a circulation strike in proof finish? Enquiring minds want to know!

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
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TDN,

 

Don't be a bigger geek about this than I am -- or rather don't let it be known in public that you're a bigger geek about this!

 

wink.gif

 

Seriously, though, I understand where you're coming from. I guess that's the nature of patterns -- and the Midnight Minters certainly made sorting out the issues more difficult!

 

EVP

 

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
Posted

Great thread! (Sorry I can't add anything blush.gif) Thanks michael, TDN, EVP!

 

Tell me, what are the arguments for the Gobrecht dollar being a circulation strike in proof finish?

 

Hoot

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
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The fact that multiple deliveries were released to circulation.

 

Why strike 1000 coins of a pattern? Why release exactly 1000 coins to the bank unless for actual circulation. Why strike another 600 and release to the bank a few months later unless for actual circulation. Why strike 300 more three years later and release to the bank unless for circulation.

 

In my mind, all signs point toward a circulation strike in proof finish [to show the coin in the best possible light - remember that no silver dollars had been struck for almost 40 years]. This was not a small pattern coinage to evaluate a design - this was a rather large production and the coinage was released to the general public.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

Posted
Posted

Tell me, what are the arguments for the Gobrecht dollar being a circulation strike in proof finish?

 

The prevailing school of thought, and based on official Mint records, is that this only applies to the 1836-dated and 1839-dated Name On Base issues. The supposed non-pattern 1836-dated issues were either struck or issued in two passes: 12/36, on planchets of weight and fineness from the original Mint Act as signed by Geo. Washington; and, on 3/37 on planchets of the new weight and fineness effective 1837 and used for SD's all the way to the 1964-D Peace Dollar.

 

EVP

 

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
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IMO, none of the Gobrechts are patterns [in the strict definition of the word] - with the possible exception of the 1836 'name under base'.

 

The various combinations of stars, metals, and edges are probably all fantasy pieces struck in the 1860's - along with restrikes of the original issues.

 

The 1836 'name under base' remains a bit of a mystery. The 18 so called "originals" have not been confirmed and are now in doubt, so either the coins currently known are in fact the original patterns, or the only known coins are restrikes from the fantasy period.

 

 

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
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This is excellent information TDN and EVP! Who were all of the players in the execution of these designs, including people who gave the orders to mint these pieces, who minted them, what banks received them and which pieces were stashed away into special collections? Do I ask too much?

 

Hoot

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

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Do I ask too much?

 

Yes. Aren't you one of the few the academic researchers among us? I know that it is common knowledge among this generation of numismatists that 1900 (1000+600+300) 36- and 39-dated specimens were cashiered out by the Mint.

 

I'm too lazy to look at my available sources to find which banks received them, but I doubt that even the Bowers encyclopedia would have THAT info!

 

As for TDN's comment that very few, if any at all, of the "name below base" variants are technically patterns ... well ... I think he's correct. Most would be fantasy pieces struck outside the official authorization of the Mint, and some would even be more accurately termed "novodel". I'd have to dig a little bit to formulate an opinion on the 36-dated "n-below-b" variants to see if any is likely -- IMO -- to be actual patterns.

 

EVP

 

PS Great thread, Michael!

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
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Oops. Caught EVP in a mistake:

 

....is that this only applies to the 1836-dated and 1839-dated Name On Base issues.

 

The name was removed from the base for the 1839 issue.

 

 

Here's another little tidbit. The 1836 'name under base' Gobrecht quite possibly holds the record as one of the worst investments in numismatic history. These coins routinely sold in the hundreds of dollars around the turn of the century [1900]. Compared to other coins that fetched in that range at that time, their star has definitely fallen!

 

 

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

Posted
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Bwahahahahahahaha! grin.gif

 

Here is a truly interesting tidbit [paraphrased from Bowers]:

 

In June 1838 the Treasury had paid out all the Gobrechts on hand and asked for 50 more pieces. These were supplied, but then it asked for 25 more. Dies dated 1838 were subsequently created and perhaps 50 originals were made!

 

Could it be that the 1838 dated Gobrechts are one of the rarest circulation strike coinage in existance?

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
Posted
Do I ask too much?

 

Yes. Aren't you one of the few the academic researchers among us?

 

Hey, I'm an ecologist for the academic side! confused-smiley-013.gifsorry.gif

 

Thanks for the great thread! flowerred.gif

 

Hoot

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BOILER78

BOILER78

Posted
Posted

TDN- I have been meaning to thank you for losing interest in this one! grin.gif I am sure you remember how pretty it is in Hand? This coin is sooo original it is nearly impossible to image accurately!

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