into franklins? how is the current market for them? what are the coins to buy?

[michael]

for me i think franklins have a long way to go even though they have been somewhat cooler in demand as of late

 

i think neatly colored coins

 

coins in gem mintstate and higher

 

pre 1955 coins that are close to but not FBL

 

a combo of 2 or 3 the above

 

are great undervalued coins to buy!!

 

WHAT DO YOU THINK??????

 

 

michael

[RobertB]

Michael,

That's a beauty, almost looks like marble. Sweet.

I myself like Franklins. I have a bu set in a Dansco that I worked on over a couple years. Nothing special, just took my time as I often have several series going. Now I'm looking to put a NGC slabbed MS64 set together, but, with a twist. I want white pieces with a golden crescent on the obverse. Now that should take some time! So far I've only found one, a 1952-S, which is in my opinion the true key to the series and extremely underpriced. They're somewhat difficult to find at all .

 

Rob

[truthteller]

Michael,

 

I'm impressed. Where do get these beautiful coins?

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[michael]

thanks robert!

 

that set of franklins you put together i bet is a really eye appealling matched set i think that is the key! you cant find something like that overnight it takes a long time!

 

you are right about the 52-s and to find white coins with the golden crescent is going to be really hard

 

truth!

thanks well for me the coins in this eastern collection the owner has a good eye and even better contacts WELL NOT REALLY JUST PAYS MORE $$$$$ THAN MOST FOR EYE APPEAL

 

michael

[jtryka]

michael,

 

I really like Franklins, and I think the series is sort of bi-polar, in that the scarcer dates for FBL are wildly overpriced (for what I consider a relatively minor improvement in overall appearance) while the non-FBL coins are often wildly underpriced! I put together a nice set a few years ago, my criteria was to have white coins (my personal preference) and MS-63 or higher. I have no idea whether these coins will ever rise in value, but they are a nice short set that are affordable in unc. to even the most budget minded young collector. That is something you just don't see much anymore. As for RobertB's set, it sounds nice, and although I prefer white coins, I know exactly what he is talking about.

 

1958-D

 

This 1958-D is pretty common, and I bought it at a coin show 6 months or a year ago for under $20. I really thought the toning was attractive though, with a crescent of gold streaming to red and eventually blue at the edge (the blue doesn't show up so well on the photo). I sent it in to NGC with a freebie grading coupon I think, and it came back MS-64 FBL. The reverse it totally white too, and it's a great little coin for not a lot of money. Certainly an underrated series overall!

[jom]

into franklins?

 

Not if I can help it.

 

That's a nice coin you have there Michael. It's just I'm not a big fan of this series. I agree with jtryka in that I don't believe the FBL status adds enough to the overall eye appeal of the coin to justify the price. And, as not to be too biased, I believe the same thing for FS nickels and FB dimes. To me you can find "non-Full whatever" coins in those series at FAR less cost and be just as eye appealing.

 

jom

[spy88]

To me you can find "non-Full whatever" coins in those series at FAR less cost and be just as eye appealing.

 

Quite true, jom, however not as prized for registry points or re-sale value. If all you are interested in is having a lot of very eye-appealing coins, this would be a viable and extremely less expensive way to go, but any attribute assigned a coin that enhances its value and/or marketability will always be an investment you can be sure will eventually return more then your initial investment.

 

I (IMO) do not think the same can be said for coins bought based strictly on eye-appeal.

[jom]

Therefore, what you are saying is that only coin series with "attributes" are worth investing in. Most gold series do not have attributes nor do many early US coins. Are they not worthy of investment?

 

This is the MAIN reason I do not believe in attributes. IMO, I think they should all be trashed and let the MARKET decide what a coin is worth.

 

As to enhanceing value: I don't know. If you buy something cheaply enough then there shouldn't be a problem when you sell. In any investment you make money when you buy not when you sell....

 

jom

[spy88]

Therefore, what you are saying is that only coin series with "attributes" are worth investing in. Most gold series do not have attributes nor do many early US coins. Are they not worthy of investment?

 

Don't know how you extrapolated this from my post, but regardless, it is NOT what I am saying. The previous posts referred to FBL, FB, and FS. Frankies, Dimes and nickels. To those three series was my post addressed.

 

ANY coin one buys and can sell for a profit is a good deal. But to "trash" all the attributes and let the market decide its value, is exactly what we have now with the attributes.

 

David

 

 

[jom]

But to "trash" all the attributes and let the market decide its value, is exactly what we have now with the attributes.

 

What we have is the TPG's attributing these things and creating a market. There is no "let the market" decide. The FB Merc with periferal weakness will still sell for more than an almost FB (and otherwise full strike) Merc any day of the week. Why? Because of a marking on the label. If both those coin were raw and there was no such thing as a slab do you really think the FB coin would sell for more? What we have now is market that is dominated by the TPG's so if these were raw coins the FB would go for more. Why? Because the person buying would know it would get slabbed as such. It has FAR more to do with "what will it slab" than it has to do with what the coin is "worth" in an open market.

 

I (IMO) do not think the same can be said for coins bought based strictly on eye-appeal.

 

Why not? Isn't the nicer coin worth more than the less appealing piece?

 

jom

[RobertB]

I came across the auction for the 52-S I won. This particular look is the type of Franklin I love. Don't know why? Just do.

 

http://apps.heritagecoin.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=23125&Lot_No=13773&src

[shirohniichan]

My four-year old daughter saw an ad for Franklins and said, "Look at the pretty coins!" It's sad to think that her vision is failing her at such a young age.

 

Michael's example is a rare case in which a Frankie does look nice.

 

I'm a big eye-appeal fan. FBL, FS, FB don't mean all that much to me if the coins don't look nice overall.

[michael]

shiro your statement

 

 

""I'm a big eye-appeal fan. FBL, FS, FB don't mean all that much to me if the coins don't look nice overall. ""

 

 

 

IS THE KEY!! as usual with you shiro very astute

 

 

michael

 

[michael]

jtryka you sum things up really well!!!!!!!

 

 

 

""I really like Franklins, and I think the series is sort of bi-polar, in that the scarcer dates for FBL are wildly overpriced (for what I consider a relatively minor improvement in overall appearance) while the non-FBL coins are often wildlyunderpriced!""

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

 

 

michael

[michael]

jom very astute your statement

 

That's a nice coin you have there Michael. thanks

 

""It's just I'm not a big fan of this series. I agree with jtryka in that I don't believe the FBL status adds enough to the overall eye appeal of the coin to justify the price. And, as not to be too biased, I believe the same thing for FS nickels and FB dimes. To me you can find "non-Full whatever" coins in those series at FAR less cost and be just as eye appealing.""

 

 

 

for me

 

the key is monster eye APPEAL combined with great technical grade ,,,,,,fbl be damned..... as so many are soooooo close

one day they are fbl... the next day not..... the next day fbl and so on and so on.....................

 

also for me a coin like the colored one 99.9% fbl but not quite there i put on the attachment here is ten times more rare and undervalued as compaired to its plain looking fbl counterpart

 

michael

[LucyBop]

Never heard of them.

[michael]

 

michael

[JD-migration]

What we have is the TPG's attributing these things and creating a market. There is no "let the market" decide. The FB Merc with periferal weakness will still sell for more than an almost FB (and otherwise full strike) Merc any day of the week. Why? Because of a marking on the label. If both those coin were raw and there was no such thing as a slab do you really think the FB coin would sell for more? What we have now is market that is dominated by the TPG's so if these were raw coins the FB would go for more. Why? Because the person buying would know it would get slabbed as such. It has FAR more to do with "what will it slab" than it has to do with what the coin is "worth" in an open market.

jom

 

 

What is "market"?

 

Fair market value is defined as an exchange between a willing buyer & a willing seller. No one can create a "market" unless the other side of the equation is present. Like they say, "it takes two to tango".

 

Value is demand oriented. If the demand exceeds supply, then the price goes up. If no one wanted to buy these "attributes" then there would be no difference in value compared to a coin with a different strike characteristic. It makes no difference to economics whether demand is created by investment potential or desire for a better coin, or a combination of both. It's all driven by demand. In the end, the market WILL decide.

 

If you don't want any of it....don't buy it, but it doesn't mean the concept of "attributes" is flawed.

 

No flame intended, just my perspective on business & the economics of it all, including my coin hobby.

 

[IrishMike]

I have almost completed an entire MS set in 64 and 65 grades without any concern for FBL's. Every coin has red and green or red and blue toning. If you view the entire set at one time its striking. The value of each coin isn't that dramatic, but the set as a whole is worth way more than the sum of the parts. Its a gorgeous matched set and was a real kick to make.

 

Last year at FUN one of the nicest sets I saw was a MS set of 64 red IHC's which got me to thinking about putting this Franklin set together.

[Merc]

Hmm, there have been many happy post on the Franklins. Back when I started buying them in 1997, I would have agreed with you. They had very low populations in MS65 FBL. Then it could be tough to find brilliant ones with great luster or beautiful toned ones. I remember looking at teletrade (there were few good coins on ebay then) and seeing 1955 FBL MS65 go for $300+ if they were brilliant. Ugly toned ones went for around $100 but I never wanted an ugly one I did buy a nice PCGS graded 1960-D FBL MS65. My 1998 pcgs pop book showed around 50 of that grade with none higher. Now it is up to 280 or so with 8 higher. OK, 280 is still a small number, but it is a big percent increase in a short time. 50 made the grade in 11 years of grading at pcgs. Then 230 more made the grade in the last 6 years.

 

I think many of the MS65 FBL coins are too high now and will continue their fall. This is supposed to be a hot market and Franklins are about the only thing falling. I sold off the majority of my Franklins about 6 months ago. I held on to a few that I liked but the expensive ones are all gone. Others are doing the same thing. Look how many people are selling their MS65 FBL Franks on the buy/sell board on CU.

 

FBL on the holder can be misleading too. NGC ones usually look full, but I've seen some pcgs ones with very weak FBL.

 

Sorry I don't share in the happy outlook on the Franks.

[spy88]

I second what JD stated.

 

The TPGSs have been putting the attributes on labels for decades and they will not stop. Too many collectors have agreed with the way they are doing it to "trash" them.

 

If you don't want any of it....don't buy it, but it doesn't mean the concept of "attributes" is flawed.

Agreed.

 

No flame intended, just my perspective on business & the economics of it all, including my coin hobby.

Seconded.

 

David

 

[Leothelion]

What we have is the TPG's attributing these things and creating a market. There is no "let the market" decide. The FB Merc with periferal weakness will still sell for more than an almost FB (and otherwise full strike) Merc any day of the week. Why? Because of a marking on the label. If both those coin were raw and there was no such thing as a slab do you really think the FB coin would sell for more? What we have now is market that is dominated by the TPG's so if these were raw coins the FB would go for more. Why? Because the person buying would know it would get slabbed as such. It has FAR more to do with "what will it slab" than it has to do with what the coin is "worth" in an open market.

jom

 

 

What is "market"?

 

Fair market value is defined as an exchange between a willing buyer & a willing seller. No one can create a "market" unless the other side of the equation is present. Like they say, "it takes two to tango".

 

Value is demand oriented. If the demand exceeds supply, then the price goes up. If no one wanted to buy these "attributes" then there would be no difference in value compared to a coin with a different strike characteristic. It makes no difference to economics whether demand is created by investment potential or desire for a better coin, or a combination of both. It's all driven by demand. In the end, the market WILL decide.

 

If you don't want any of it....don't buy it, but it doesn't mean the concept of "attributes" is flawed.

 

No flame intended, just my perspective on business & the economics of it all, including my coin hobby.

 

Rediculous (sucker) prices are paid because of the big monkey wrench the TGC's threw onto the market and that is, the registries! One of the worst things happening to the fair market value is when a new collector (a puppy with money to burn) catches wind of the registries and learns how to play! Certainly, a few seasoned collectors have found themselves caught up in this hype but if they got the dough, then they will compete or buy because they want those coins. Whether a coin is attributed or not, the strike and eye appeal should win everytime, raw or slabbed! Albeit, the TGC's add extra points for the attributed registry coin and that's another milk bone for the market, puppy and the TGC's profits. And lastly, before this registry BS, as a FS collector and belonging to a FS nickel club at one time, I remember prices as high as $2000 paided for RAW FS nickels. And I won't hesitate buying raw coins today as long as the coin is all there. If it looks suspect of a cleaning or AT, certfication helps in those areas. If the coin is actually rare and has problems with counterfieting, the TGC's are a must in that area as well. But using the TGC's to determine whether a coin differentiates between 1 or 2 points for profit is a bunch of craap because it's flawed from the beginning with no set grading standards across the boards with the TGC's, dealers and collectors. Another reason why most everyone are continually getting screwwed, if you don't know what you're doing, that is! Mainly PayCGS, the hobby itself has turned into the grand HSN of the world.

"See here boy, do I have a coin for you!" "You see, it's slabbed I tell ya and it's a rare pop top coin!' (And it's February, remind you) "You best be buying it as coin prices are shooting through the roof!" Golly gee, what was that website I saw this in? The registries are the.......oh no......I think I'm going to be sick again........(bbbbblllllaaaahhh) "damnn, puked again" whew! I feel much better now!

 

Leo

 

.......End of thread!

[LucyBop]

Hey Lion, quit barking and roaring!!!

 

there, now can I interest you in some Full Bell or Full Step registry coins?

[spy88]

Lucy, whatcha got in the FS to show me?

 

David

[BushMan]

I think many of the MS65 FBL coins are too high now and will continue their fall. This is supposed to be a hot market and Franklins are about the only thing falling..........FBL on the holder can be misleading too. NGC ones usually look full, but I've seen some pcgs ones with very weak FBL.

Quite observant of you! The populations are exploding and the number of collectors has not increased near what it would take to absorb the additional supplies. PCGS hands out the FBL designation like candy to kids. Stay with NGC FBL's for reasonable populations. The series' value is toast!

[jom]

Fair market value is defined as an exchange between a willing buyer & a willing seller. No one can create a "market" unless the other side of the equation is present. Like they say, "it takes two to tango".

 

Really? If there were NO TPG's would you pay 10X (or 20X or 30X) normal for a small difference in strike if the holder didn't "say" it was FBL? The VAST majority of people who buy these things wouldn't. Why? Because it doesn't make sense. Most people who buy these knows that since it's holdered there is a ready "market" for it even if it isn't quite FBL. But, gee, as long as the holder says so it must be FBL, right?

 

You want a true market? Gid rid of the slabs and then you'll see the true market. You'll see a true market that is based on the value of what someone would pay for the COIN not some phoney guarentee from a TPG.

 

 

jom

[gmarguli]

If there were NO TPG's would you pay 10X (or 20X or 30X) normal for a small difference in strike if the holder didn't "say" it

 

Maybe. Would I still have a chance a getting one of these?:

 

[michael]

Really? If there were NO TPG's would you pay 10X (or 20X or 30X) normal for a small difference in strike if the holder didn't "say" it was FBL? The VAST majority of people who buy these things wouldn't. Why? Because it doesn't make sense. Most people who buy these knows that since it's holdered there is a ready "market" for it even if it isn't quite FBL. But, gee, as long as the holder says so it must be FBL, right?

 

You want a true market? Gid rid of the slabs and then you'll see the true market. You'll see a true market that is based on the value of what someone would pay for the COIN not some phoney guarentee from a TPG.

**********************************************************

this above statement well said should be a disclaimer on all holdered coins where the holder makes over 80% of the coins value

 

 

michael

 

[JD-migration]

Really? If there were NO TPG's would you pay 10X (or 20X or 30X) normal for a small difference in strike if the holder didn't "say" it was FBL? The VAST majority of people who buy these things wouldn't.

 

Everything about coin grading is based on "small differences," including strike. Thats why the Sheldon Scale is the standard of the industry today instead of the old system that only used BU for uncirculated coins. There are over 25 different Sheldon grades used commonly, not counting the attributes you take exception to as well as other like PL, DPL, Cam, UCam, etc.

 

Why? Because it doesn't make sense. Most people who buy these knows that since it's holdered there is a ready "market" for it even if it isn't quite FBL. But, gee, as long as the holder says so it must be FBL, right?

 

You're absolutely right! Most people who buy the coins at discussion here do know that there is a "ready market" for NGC & PCGS certified coins. That's why they buy them! They can be sold at the grade on the holder with far less concern of being "downgraded" or criticized by an unscrupulous buyer. The real problem here seems to be more deeply rooted in the difference of opinions, yours and TGC's at to whether a coin's strike is FBL. I certainly wouldn't take exception if you disagreed with the designation, but the difference is, the industry does rely on NGC & PCGS.

 

You want a true market? Gid rid of the slabs and then you'll see the true market. You'll see a true market that is based on the value of what someone would pay for the COIN not some phoney guarentee from a TPG.

 

Certification by NGC & PCGS exist today because there was a need for the services they provide. Remember free enterprise & the law of supply & demand? If the industry, made up of dealers, collectors & investors had no use for their services, then they would not be in business today. Certification or "holdered", if you prefer, isn't the perfect solution to grading. And, there will probably never be a perfect solution, but it's way better than it was 30 yrs ago. WIth NGC or PCGS "holdered" coins, Joe collector stands a far better chance of buying a genuine rare coin rather than an altered or counterfeit coin.

 

Without reputable grading services such as NGC & PCGS, cleaned, altered and, counterfeit coins would again be a part of the "true market" you prefer. True value is what an item is actually worth, not what it can be bogusly represented as and sold for to a collector or another unsuspecting dealer.

 

In closing, I think it's of note to realize we live in a different world today, as evidenced by the very machines we are presently sitting in front of. Even with digital pictures, a significant degree of reliance is placed on the certified holder to more accurately represent the grade. The internet has been a tremendous tool, bringing coin collecting to the largest mass of collectors ever. Certification has played an important part of that growth.

 

I'm through.......

 

 

[michael]

ttt