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TPGs should not (and never should have) guaranteed copper "color" designations

4 posts in this topic

There are too many factors beyond their control, making it impossible to truly guarantee the future appearance of a copper coin. It may be possible to summarize as follows:

 

1. Copper is a highly reactive metal. Enough said.

 

2. Slabs are not air-tight, contrary to popular misconception. I have never figured out why so many collectors think TPG holders are air and/or water proof. Without question, sooner or later, the environment WILL make its way inside your slab.

 

3. SO much "red" and "red/brown" copper is worked on. I personally know of a number of copper coins that have been "enhanced" and now reside in upgraded holders, and of course, the infamous PCGS Norweb hibernia is the one I have personal disastrous experience with. I can't imagine that such a large number of collectors actually believe copper coins can remain fully red after 300, 200, or even 100 years, in an unprotected environment.

 

4. This is my opinion, but I do not like so-called "color designations" anyway. The color should simply be taken into account in the numeric grade. Otherwise, it basically has the effect of turning 10 points of the grading scale into 30 points, with BN, RD and RB tacked on to each of the MS-60 through MS-69 grades (MS-70 would automatically be "RD"). Trying to price against thirty possible columns of grades is a little bit of overkill. In this regard, I much prefer the EAC philosophy of a numeric grade that has color designation built in.

 

For me, I will stick with brown and red/brown copper, and steer clear of the red stuff. I just do not trust it, and never have.

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4. This is my opinion, but I do not like so-called "color designations" anyway. The color should simply be taken into account in the numeric grade. Otherwise, it basically has the effect of turning 10 points of the grading scale into 30 points, with BN, RD and RB tacked on to each of the MS-60 through MS-69 grades (MS-70 would automatically be "RD"). Trying to price against thirty possible columns of grades is a little bit of overkill. In this regard, I much prefer the EAC philosophy of a numeric grade that has color designation built in.

 

This is interesting. Some people argue for more qualifiers and descriptors as part of the grade, and some people argue for less. Is it possible that the Sheldon scale is a little too simple for the current market? There does seem to be a desire for grading each coin to the most precise level possible. If you are going to incorporate the color level into the grade, do you think that there should be more grades? I find it interesting that you mention 30 grade points - under the 100 point system, wouldn't there be right around that many grades available?

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For me, I will stick with brown and red/brown copper, and steer clear of the red stuff. I just do not trust it, and never have.

This is a matter of taste and trust in the dealer you buy from. One of my collections contains all red Lincoln Cents. When it comes to purchasing the early wheat-back cents, I established a relationship with a dealer who is excellent with determining when a copper coins has been cleaned or dipped. Based on my relationship with that dealer, I trust that the wheat-back cents I have are not dipped or otherwise cleaned. They have even taught me what to look for--although I have to admit that I have trouble with what they called "professionally dipped" coins.

 

In this case, it is a matter of trusting who you are working with in order to find the coins you want. I will only buy red cents from this dealer because they have demonstrated time and again their expertise in finding quality unaltered coins.

 

Scott :hi:

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I agree that the TPGs should not guarantee color. However, once they did, they should stand by their word. After all, if you can't trust a TPGs word, what use are they in the first place?

 

What's next? Will the TPGs guarantee for puttied gold, doctored silver, or authenticity go the way of RD & RB copper?

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