Who initially taught you to grade? (which standard)

[DonHeath]

Where did you first learn to grade? Was it Photograde, Redbook, ANA, NGC, PCGS, etc. Which standard did you adopt as your internal standard?

[GDJMSP]

I initially learned to grade from my grandfather and then from the Red Book as this was prior to the existence of the others mentioned. Since then my grading skills have been refined by reading and using all of the mentioned sources. As for which standard I personally use - I suppose the ANA would be the closest.

 

But in the collecting world today I think is necessary for one to be aware of and familiar with the standards used by the various grading companies as well anyone else from whom you may wish to purchase coins.

[Newmismatist]

Where did you first learn to grade?

 

My father when I first started collecting - ther were a lot less grades then: good, VG, F VF, EF & Unc. Then from our local coin dealer, then our local coin club - then Photograde (the earliest version), and after that, lots of coin shows and undoubtedly a lot of mistakes along the way - You learn a lot when you buy a coin and then when you go to sell it you find out what everyone else grades it. Even with third party grading services, grading is fluid - it often depends on whether you're the buyer or the seller.

 

I don't always agree with the grade shown on the paper insert, and neither do a lot of dealers - so no matter what, I always grade the coins I buy - even if already graded.

[gmarguli]

A local dealer used to show me coins that I couldn't afford and he'd tell me what they graded (according to him). Since I couldn't afford them he had no reason to lie to me about the grades.

 

PCGS was just starting up and I tried to match my grading to theirs. Back then they were rather strict and more consistent.

 

I read Photograde for the circulated coins and got an OK idea of what they are looking for in a certain grade.

 

I'd go to auctions and talk to the dealers there while waiting for the auction to start. Try to get an idea of how they thought the auction company graded according to them and see if it matched my opinion.

 

To this day I love to hear why other collectors graded a coin a certain way. You can pick up on small things that never bothered you, but might bother others.

 

The best 30-45 minutes I have spent in a LONG time learning to grade was a year or so ago sitting with Mark Feld and showing him some of my coins. It was a great experience having a "professional grader" tell me why he would or wouldn't grade one of the coins a certain way. Things that I loved about my coins he didn't and showed me why. Things that were neutral to me were negatives to him. Things that I couldn't care about were positives to him. Just getting a glimpse into the mind of a grader was great.

 

My internal standard used to be PCGS before they went schizophrenic on their grading. Now I use a NGC standard. For designations I use the looser standard (frequently PCGS) since if I am selling the coin I only care if it will just make the looser designation. However, for gold I use neither a PCGS or NGC standard. I use my own standard which says that "GEM" coins should NOT be covered in marks.

 

[Android]

Like others, I used the definitions in the Red Book for circulated coins, which I picked out of change and put in Whitmans when I was a kid. Coming back into the hobby about five years ago, I could afford UN-circulated coins, and studied NGC and PCGS slabs. I'd sit at shows with boxes and boxes of slabs and looked at them closely. I probably grade these days more along NGC's standards, as I think they are more realistic and closer to the ANA guidelines. My biggest fault in grading, is that I think I study a coin too closely, sometimes forgetting about the coin as a whole - its intrinsic beauty, or lack thereof - I've probably missed out on some sweet coins in the process.

[Hoot]

I first graded as best I could according to what I could glean from the Red Book. I went to local dealers to help me with the circulated grades I was interested in and could afford. Later, I got help from Photograde, then from the ANA guidelines. I took a couple of correspondence courses from ANA and looked at lots and lots of slabbed coins. I was mostly influenced by PCGS graded coins. I picked up PCGSs book on grading as well as Halpern's book. Those, along with viewing coins and buying/selling helped me out quite a bit. I still go to a local dealer (Dale Williams) who used to be a PCGS grader to pick up fine details or learn about series I'm unfamiliar with. When I buy a coin raw, I always think of what the 3 major services would each grade the coin.

 

Hoot

[Leothelion]

Who initially taught you to grade?

 

ME!

 

Where did you first learn to grade? Was it ANACS, Photograde, Redbook, ANA, NGC, PCGS, etc. Which standard did you adopt as your internal standard?

 

Basically, I've learned how to grade myself. The differences between what I like and dislike is not too difficult of a fundamental decision to make.

 

Leo

 

 

[Bruceswar]

I guess the Redbook gave me alot of tips... but I think I also learned alot by looking at the coins themselves.....

[Rehit]

i am slowly trying to learn to grade.

i have purchased a redbook and the photograde book.

could someone please explain to me the difference in the redbook prices and the greysheet prices posted at PCGS?

my biggest problem is trying to find some sort of definitive table to grade MS coins.

the photograde is a good book but does not really tell me much about anything above AU 50.

i tried to glean some information from the only local coin dealer in my area, but was really put off by what i was told.

he implied virtually any marks at all were going to prevent any of my coins grading in any MS state.

he became quite perturbed when i looked at some similar coins graded MS 68 from his case and told him some of the coins i had actually had less marks than his. ( and i was looking at them with a 10X loupe)

he also led me to believe any marks such as die polishing and small die cracks, or any die imperfections would prevent a coin from any type of MS grade.

i have been closely comparing some of my raw coins to PCGS and NGC graded and slabbed coins i have, as a sort of reference.

i feel that some of them compare quite closely with some slabbed as MS 66 and MS 68.

i have a very pretty 1943 Standing Liberty that is probably about MS 64.

he looked at it for about 5 seconds and told me it had been cleaned.

he could not, or would not tell me why he had this opinion, other than to say it was white...

the coin has really nice unbroken luster.

i also know this particular coin had been in my granfather's posession since about 1945, kept in a box with cotton batting.

i really do not think it has ever been cleaned

i could understand if i had never purchased anything from him before, but i have spent several hundred dollars over the last few years in his shop, my wife purchased a slabbed 1883 CC Morgan from him for me this crhistmas, and i actually bought the Photograde book from him.

i have found reference to the Sheldon scale at heritage, and am trying to understand the scoring process.

if someone could give me a sort of thumbnail reference as what level of marks create the change from one grade to the next it would be greatly appreciated.

i have a great many raw coins that i consider to be very pretty and fairly free of any marks.

it would be nice to know which are worth sending for TPG before sending a bunch that would not stand an honest chance.

i have a very good digital camera, and as soon as i get the knack of taking some really good macro shots of some of my coins i will post then.

i want to thank all of you for freely sharing your knowledge.

i have learned a lot here in a very short time

[Hoot]

Hi h - and welcome to the forums. Your best bet for learning to grade MS coins is to look at as many examples as you can that are slabbed by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. These will be your best guides. Try to become as familiar as possible with one series. Believe it or not, this will help you undersand ALL series in terms of grading. You will become familiar with the subtle nuances of strike and associated features (you mentioned die cracks and polish, etc.), as well as issues of wear that may or may not determine mint state, the detriments of nicks/dings, etc. and how the severity and placement affect grade, lustre and lustre breaks, toning, cleaning, planchet condition, and other features that affect grade. Pick up as many references as you can on the subject and read them all. Keep looking at coins. Have a few of yours graded and try to understand the grade assignments. Take the ANA correspondence courses and attend their summer seminars if you can. Keep looking at coins. And... keep looking at coins.

 

Your dealer friend does not sound very knowledgable.

 

"could someone please explain to me the difference in the redbook prices and the greysheet prices posted at PCGS?"

 

They are both approximations. Red book is full of composit approximations made on the basis of average prices yielded for grades at or near the stated grade over the last couple of years. Some of the rarer coins are only approximated based on professional opinion. Greysheet is supposed to be more up to date than Red Book. It is very ballpark and is usually on the low side in a bull market (like now). Use greysheet as a jumping off point for sight-seen (in-hand) prices on professionally graded coins. For raw coins, greysheet is an approximation based on your skill.

 

Have fun and start a thread on your specialty!

 

Hoot

[Oldtrader3]

I learned to grade from Photograde and from buying US gold coins at the Royal Bank of Canada and Eaton's (Sears Canada) coin shoppe in their downtown Montreal and Toronto stores. Back then in Canada (early 1960's), they did not have the AU grade, only XF, BU and Choice BU with no point system. Also, I bought coins from auctions that were graded by the imprecise standards of the time. I won some and lost some on auctions.

 

It was "pay as you go" learning based on judgemental mistakes and their attendent resale loses. These loses were balanced against quickly developing sound personal grading standards. It was a dog-eat-dog market, particularly pertaining learning to grade sliders that were marked as BU. It was all very imprecise compared to TPG grading standards of today.

[Trime-migration]

I grew up Numismatically in the pre-certification era; modern grading skills were learned through an evolving process. I started reading all the available grading books and videos, looking at slabbed coins in preauction viewing, buying coins and discusing them with knowlegeable people, attending several ANA Summer Seminar Courses on advanced grading, viewing more and more coins, reviewing my own certified collection with a skilled grader/dealer, and discussing coins with very advanced collectors.

As most of you on this forum know, becoming a skilled grader is not a weekend project. To become truly proficient you need a very good eye and lots of experience. Coin value is determined by knowing high end and low end differences within grades. Visual memory skills are a gift.

I strongly advise those non experts interested in gaining a reasonable level of proficiency to attend (if they can afford the trip) the ANA Colorado Springs Grading Courses. The instructors are not only the best in the business , they are wonderful people to meet. In this venue they are happy to share their finely honed skills with you.

[DonHeath]

When I collected as a kid, the Redbook was my best resource. The hobby has changed so much since then. Perhaps the best learning experience for me was the ANA grading seminar, and I sure look forward to participating again. The one I attended was taught by the NGC team, and although the class was useful, the quality time with the graders was very helpful. Holding a particular coin and asking them to discuss their impression of it was fascinating. There's just no substitute for experience. I'd recommend it to anyone.

[jom]

The first best source was "How to Grade US coins" by Jim Halpern. I really learned to grade by looking at boat loads of crappy Ikes and Kennedy's when I first came back to collecting coins.

 

The best way I can think of is do what Greg did: sit down with an experienced grader like Mark.

 

The 2nd best way is to look at auction lots until your eyes fall out. That is the best and cheapest way to learn. Then compare what you got to the auction result to see if you saw what others did.

 

jom

[BillJones]

I started with the Brown and Dunn grading guide many years ago in the early 1960s. From there I learned more from Photograde when it came out in the late 1960s. Mostly I have taught myself by looking at many, many many coins through the years.

[Newmismatist]

I started with the Brown and Dunn grading guide many years ago in the early 1960s. From there I learned more from Photograde when it came out in the late 1960s. Mostly I have taught myself by looking at many, many many coins through the years.

 

What Bill didn't mention is that he is an excellant grader - I bought some CWTs and a very nice Kentucky Token from him at FUN and his grading was very accurate. The Kentucky Token was slabbed, but very PQ for the grade which I attribute to Bill's keen eye..

[Conder101]

Self taught with Photograde (I still like the first (1970) edition best.) and experiance looking at a lot of coins.

[Fairlaneman]

Self taught with help from the Official ANA Grading Standards, Photo Grade and the Coin Collectors Survival Manual.Then shows were attended and many coins through the years have been looked at which has refined the grading more. Along with most people the school of hard knocks has helped also.

 

In the 80's a dealer was found that has also imparted his knowledge freely. To this day we still discuss the different standards that are used within the industry. One subject that comes up constantly is the number on a slab and whether it is correct or not in our opinion.

 

Ken

[MarkFeld]

I've been very fortunate in my numismatic career to have worked for people who had the ability AND the willingness to teach me how to grade.

 

In chronological order:

 

Bob Merrill and Steve Ivy at Steve Ivy Rare Coins, when I first started out in 1979;

David Hall - no flames, please ;

Mark Salzberg, before and after each of us joined NGC;

John Albanese, at NGC

 

I try to give others helpful hints/tips on how to grade, when the opportunity presents itself. And, for those who would like to learn a great deal in a short time span, I highly recommend the ANA summer seminar advanced grading class. I have taught there twice and (with or without me there ) you can learn more there in a week, than you might otherwise learn in a year or more, elsewhere - really.

 

I want to stress - you need to find someone who is able AND willing to teach you. Many people are one of those things but few are both!

 

PS - thanks to Greg for the kind words - I enjoyed it too.

[spy88]

Back in the late 50's, I learned quite a lot from my grandfather as he had (a very sad story) quite an extensive collection, bought from dealers, out of pocket change and Denver mint orders (where he lived).

 

Before computerism, it was trial and error, mostly error as there were few available resources for guidance. But in the last ten years or so, I would have to say reading source material, auctions, forums, comparisons, etc. As for a dream of mine---would be to sit down with Mark and have him give me first-hand grades of my Jeffs! Lucky guy, Greg!

 

I am in the process of going thru Heritages archives finding NGC slabbed Jeffs that have sold and comparing to mine. As in a recent thread by me, I am either too strict or PCGS and NGC are too lenient! Haven't confirmed either way yet.

 

Mark, I am very interested to know what NGC looks for and at in grading Jeffs, especially the steps for FS designation. Just how picky are the graders in this area and what would constitute a "step break"? Have heard that if a hit goes all the way to the inside of the step between floor and riser, or "floors out", it is a broken line and therefore, not FS. If just a nick or scratch, it is still FS. True? (Little buggers are really tough on the eyes, always having to use a loupe)! I also know what FSNC considers steps but they do not slab.

 

I would really appreciate any comments and help you can post for me, and thank you before-hand!

 

David

[michael]

brown and dunn !!!!!

 

and this book anyone should buy if you are grading circ to au coins if you want the true grade!!!!

 

as it is still the best and is not grade inflated like photograde and somewhat ana

 

also ana is somewhat hard to figure out with what they are trying to say

 

then after brown and dunn

 

a good magnifying glass

a good memory

some advice from other collectors/dealers

looking at thousands and thousands of coins over close to three decades

and then to my own standards which have gotten tougher and less forgiving as the years go on

 

and truly i still do not know what i am doing but i certainly am a legend in my own mind

and have fooled myself and lost my [!@#%^&^] on many occasions and still is an ongoing thing with me as regards to federal coinage

 

michael

 

 

michael

[beartracks42-migration]

I am self taught, which may be a problem. I first studied the ANA standards, then went to Photograde for circs. I read Halperin's book, which I think is very good, got some good info from the PCGS book and also bought the tape from the ANA on grading MS coins.

 

I feel decent with Morgans and moderns, but Silver Washingtons are driving me to drink. I have submitted one coin three times...once to PCGS and twice to NGC. It has gone from a PCGS AU53 to a NGC AU58 to a NGC AU53. So, I guess it is like they say; grading is subjective. I would not have submitted this coin so many times if I did not have so much money in it and my local dealer and I both can not see what keeps the coin from grading MS63+.

 

Sorry to ramble.