The Wells Fargo Hoard .. How did this happen? 1 1

[Modwriter]

3 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'd say $2,300 or so, give or take, is fair value for a 1908 MS64 No Motto.

I did notice it had some wear in the picture. Thats why it graded low MS.

[Henri Charriere]

12 minutes ago, Modwriter said:

I did notice it had some wear in the picture. Thats why it graded low MS.

But I thought it was well-settled that by its very designation, MINT STATE, or Uncirculated to old-timers like me, implies the total absence of noticeable wear, prominent provenance, or not?

[Modwriter]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

But I thought it was well-settled that by its very designation, MINT STATE, or Uncirculated to old-timers like me, implies the total absence of noticeable wear, prominent provenance, or not?

As long as TPG's are around, this will be discussed and never settled. (Select or choice) uncirculated will grade at MS63 thru 66, correct?  I have always regarded select or choice as the key words for those mint state grades.

[GoldFinger1969]

22 minutes ago, Modwriter said:

I have always regarded select or choice as the key words for those mint state grades.

In the pre-TPG days....I think Choice Unc. was low-60's....Gem Unc. was MS65.....Super Gem was 67 or higher.

Something like that.  Before my time, I'm not sure if the numbers went up/down by 1 increment, I think they did not.  The description carried alot of weight.

[zadok]

50 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

In the pre-TPG days....I think Choice Unc. was low-60's....Gem Unc. was MS65.....Super Gem was 67 or higher.

Something like that.  Before my time, I'm not sure if the numbers went up/down by 1 increment, I think they did not.  The description carried alot of weight.

1950-70s...unc 60-61....choice unc 63-64....gem unc 65 n above....62s sort of floated around, if u were selling they were choice if u were buying they were uncs....lustre n eye appeal usually meant that dealers were inflating their grades by at least one....everything very subjective....blazing white was preferred in lots of cases especially morgans....toning hadnt really blew up yet....dipping very common....

[GoldFinger1969]

2 minutes ago, zadok said:

1950-70s...unc 60-61....choice unc 63-64....gem unc 65 n above....62s sort of floated around, if u were selling they were choice if u were buying they were uncs....lustre n eye appeal usually meant that dealers were inflating their grades by at least one....everything very subjective....blazing white was preferred in lots of cases especially morgans....toning hadnt really blew up yet....dipping very common....

Great post, chock-full-o information. 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, Modwriter said:

As long as TPG's are around, this will be discussed and never settled. (Select or choice) uncirculated will grade at MS63 thru 66, correct?  I have always regarded select or choice as the key words for those mint state grades.

Whatever happened to Brilliant Unc. and Gem Unc., or do they run higher?

[Henri Charriere]

35 minutes ago, zadok said:

1950-70s...unc 60-61....choice unc 63-64....gem unc 65 n above....62s sort of floated around, if u were selling they were choice if u were buying they were uncs....lustre n eye appeal usually meant that dealers were inflating their grades by at least one....everything very subjective....blazing white was preferred in lots of cases especially morgans....toning hadnt really blew up yet....dipping very common....

[As an aside, my local butcher decided to replace his wall clock.  When I asked him why, he answered matter-of-factly the word "choice" for cuts of meat was passe. The new term was "prime."  Maybe numismatists ought to occasionally review their terminology.]

[zadok]

3 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[As an aside, my local butcher decided to replace his wall clock.  When I asked him why, he answered matter-of-factly the word "choice" for cuts of meat was passe. The new term was "prime."  Maybe numismatists ought to occasionally review their terminology.]

select, choice, prime r official designated terms assigned by the usda.....maybe its ur butcher who is passe....

[Modwriter]

39 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Whatever happened to Brilliant Unc. and Gem Unc., or do they run higher?

According to the Sheldon Wikipedia page, Briiliant Unc. coins are MS60-62. See the second paragraph in the Notes section. Select or choice grade at MS63-64. Gem unc. can grade MS 65-69.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheldon_coin_grading_scale

 

[Conder101]

Back when the ANA first developed their Official Grading Guide, MS-60 was Typical Unc, MS-65 was Gem Unc, and MS-70 was Perfect Unc. Those were the only three MS grades and MS-70 wasn't used, it was considered to be a "theoretical" grade.

Later MS-63 Choice Unc and MS-67 Superb Unc were added.

Next came MS-64 Select Unc

And then it just went to all eleven grades and the adjectives went out the window. 

[GoldFinger1969]

5 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Back when the ANA first developed their Official Grading Guide, MS-60 was Typical Unc, MS-65 was Gem Unc, and MS-70 was Perfect Unc. Those were the only three MS grades and MS-70 wasn't used, it was considered to be a "theoretical" grade. Later MS-63 Choice Unc and MS-67 Superb Unc were added.  Next came MS-64 Select Unc And then it just went to all eleven grades and the adjectives went out the window. 

Not that we don't have dealer-buyer disagreements today, but at least you have an impartial 3rd-party TPG assigning the grades.

Must have been lots of heated discussions pre-1986 given that the description+grade could have a 2-grade differential if the dealer thought a coin was a 63 and the seller a 65.  At least today you can see a 64 ! 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

14 hours ago, zadok said:

select, choice, prime r official designated terms assigned by the usda.....maybe its ur butcher who is passe....

(This was in the mid-1960's. I was his p/t delivery boy making $1.25/hr. + tips.  I certainly appreciate your sense of humor -- and signature fixation on lower-case letters and ellipses.)

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, Conder101 said:

And then it just went to all eleven grades and the adjectives went out the window. 

(I have a theory that the only reason why the Europeans had to relent, besides the establishment of U.S. TPGS outposts, is unrelenting pressure from Set Registrants. Sad to say, but BU to me means nothing at all and the sad part is the few coins I need are probably staring me right in the face.)

[GoldFinger1969]

Bad Info:  Well, I've seen some 2nd-rate websites incorrectly state that The Wells Fargo Hoard was kept in a Wells Fargo bank over the decades, but as we know, they were there only after Gillio was in the process of buying them.

But I actually found the same misinformation stating the coins had been undisturbed since 1917 in a WF branch on the Heritage Auctions website in their archives.    It was for an MS68 coin, too, though the text accompanying it was not long and not one of the coins with text likely to be relied on for research purposes (other coins higher-graded or sold more recently are likely to have more in-depth commentary).

But I was still surprised to see this error on the website.  Maybe I should give someone there a heads-up ?

Edited April 18, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

1908 WF NM PRICING:  Studying the pricing of the 1908 Wells Fargo NM, it appears 2 clear trends emerged:  one, the pricing at about $1,150 in 1997 was consistent with the then-price and recent past pricing of other common Saints like the 1924 and 1927 in MS-65 grade.  Two, the price decline in subsequent years for all 3 common Saints mimicked one another.

I think if can be safely said that the huge surplus of 1908 NM's was pretty well absorbed into the market.  Unless there were unseen discounts or other perks, pricing seems to have been tracking other common Saints at the Gem Quality level.

It appears that with thousands or tens of thousands available already at the MS-65 and below level, the BIGGEST impact was on the Superb Gem grades (MS-67) and higher.

[GoldFinger1969]

FYI...as a general rule, Super Gem 1908 NM's (MS-67) and MS-66's seem to cost about 1/2 the price of other commons once they reach condition rarity of the MS-67/66 level.

Edited February 26, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

There are three distinct hub varieties of 1908 DE - one must be careful in checking earlier catalogs since only two were once recognized. (Again, thanks to Breen's incomplete research.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:59 AM, RWB said:

There are three distinct hub varieties of 1908 DE - one must be careful in checking earlier catalogs since only two were once recognized. (Again, thanks to Breen's incomplete research.)

The 3 types are the Short Rays No Motto, the Long Rays No Motto, and the Long Rays With Motto.....right ?  I just call them "types" didn't realize "hub variety" was the technical term.

When there were only 2 recognized, there was no distinction between Short and Long Rays I presume, hence just No Motto and Motto (the 2 types), right ?

Edited February 26, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

The three distinct hub varieties were first published in my DE book. Breen and others had mentioned long and short obv rays, but not looked more closely.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 12:16 PM, RWB said:

The three distinct hub varieties were first published in my DE book. Breen and others had mentioned long and short obv rays, but not looked more closely.

That's where I got the types above.  Must have missed the hub descriptive, I will go back.  Thanks.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 12:16 PM, RWB said:

The three distinct hub varieties were first published in my DE book. Breen and others had mentioned long and short obv rays, but not looked more closely.

This is another reason why I really want the key Commentary sections on my smartphone if not the entire book...not only do I not have to go running back to my library/bookcase in another roon, but all the info. is at your finger-tips PLUS you can search for key stuff so much more easily. 

Also saves wear-and-tear on the book. 

[VKurtB]

On 2/26/2022 at 11:16 AM, RWB said:

The three distinct hub varieties were first published in my DE book. Breen and others had mentioned long and short obv rays, but not looked more closely.

Prediction: some day, perhaps soon, the same will be proven about 1970-S cents. Not two varieties, but at LEAST three of them. Also just like 1972 Ikes. 

[Alex in PA.]

On 2/26/2022 at 8:59 AM, RWB said:

There are three distinct hub varieties of 1908 DE

As usual; I have no idea what you are talking about.  This one is from the Wells Fargo outfit in, I believe, New Mexico.

[RWB]

The first 1908 DE used the same master dies as 1907. No motto on rev and mushy stars, short rays etc on obv.

The second 1908 version used a new master die with much sharper details and long rays, but the same no motto reverse.

The third 1908 version used the improved 1908 long ray obverse, and a new reverse with motto.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 4:56 PM, VKurtB said:

Prediction: some day, perhaps soon, the same will be proven about 1970-S cents. Not two varieties, but at LEAST three of them. Also just like 1972 Ikes. 

Are there variations in production, survival, or financial numbers ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 5:15 PM, RWB said:

The first 1908 DE used the same master dies as 1907. No motto on rev and mushy stars, short rays etc on obv.

The second 1908 version used a new master die with much sharper details and long rays, but the same no motto reverse. The third 1908 version used the improved 1908 long ray obverse, and a new reverse with motto.

Got it...so Hub Varieties is the same as types.   Thanks, Roger.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 5:05 PM, Alex in PA. said:

As usual; I have no idea what you are talking about.  

Roger explained it above, Alex, but in the book he has 3 different sections for various "No Motto" / Motto 1908 Saints.  Not paragraphs, but given the same status in the book as mintmarks or year strikings.

I myself wasn't aware of the Long vs. Short Rays dichotomy until I read his book.  Never saw it on a lable....a description...or any of the HA/GC commentaries.  And if it was mentioned in Akers or Bowers' books....it was a 1-line sentence that didn't stand out and I forgot about.

Roger's book really drills stuff into you.  Of course, you can get overloaded which is why a re-reading of the book a 2nd time is essential, IMO.  Or the smartphone version of the Commentaries which I hope to do this year.

Edited February 26, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

On 2/26/2022 at 4:40 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Are there variations in production, survival, or financial numbers ?

From as recent as 1970, maybe SOME difference in survival rates in high grade, but not as much as one might assume. This date exists in solid rolls in pretty significant numbers. The “small date” and “large date” are recognized widely. My claim is there is a third type with a MIX of SD and LD diagnostics. My belief is this third type is responsible for a large majority of “rejected” SD finds sent for certification. The small date must have about 3-4 different attributes or markers. But it’s not true that there only zero or 3-4 attribute coins. The are also 1 and 2 attribute coins. 
 

And THIS is precisely why I am sooooo dismissive of Roger’s method. Nobody, not me, not you, not Roger, not anyone else, can research this issue above from looking at documents in a NARA. You have to possess and examine the coins themselves. There is no documentation. Like Jane Goodall, you have to look the gorillas square in the eye, not read some dead guy’s writings. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/26/2022 at 6:25 PM, VKurtB said:

And THIS is precisely why I am sooooo dismissive of Roger’s method. Nobody, not me, not you, not Roger, not anyone else, can research this issue above from looking at documents in a NARA. You have to possess and examine the coins themselves. There is no documentation. Like Jane Goodall, you have to look the gorillas square in the eye, not read some dead guy’s writings. 

Well, I'll let him speak for himself but if finding coins to actually match documents takes YEARS than it delays the book a long time.  And sometimes the coins might be tough to track down.

I know Roger posted in the long Saints thread that he observed many of the coins for the sections on die varieties.

Edited February 27, 2022 by GoldFinger1969