The Wells Fargo Hoard .. How did this happen?
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190 posts in this topic

On 3/1/2022 at 4:18 PM, Alex in PA. said:

I must have lost track but what does all this have to do with the Wells Fargo Hoard?  

I am going to try and find some stuff from the NARA portal tonight on the WF Hoard and also the 1983 MTB Hoard.  Will report back....I usually have trouble navigating around that thing, so who knows if I'll get anywhere.

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On 3/1/2022 at 2:53 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If anything, the government might have more stuff that we don't know about (like the Export-Import Letter).

The King Farouk export letter exists and license. There's no secret about it - never has been. Copies filed with Fenton case.

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The Wells Frago and other similar instances are object lessons -- get the information while it's fresh. Each delay loses content and quality.

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On 3/1/2022 at 3:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

My supervisor tells me as long as we have the coins in-house, I can exchange at any time since I didn't have the $$$ or coins a bit earlier in late-March/early-April 1933.

I simply believe that factually never happened, and in the unlikely event it did, it was ended as soon as it was discovered. It was contrary to the FDR admin policy. 

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On 3/1/2022 at 3:48 PM, RWB said:

The Wells Frago and other similar instances are object lessons -- get the information while it's fresh. Each delay loses content and quality.

Agreed. It starts questionable and gets worse quickly. Like gas station sushi. 

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On 3/1/2022 at 3:46 PM, RWB said:

The King Farouk export letter exists and license. There's no secret about it - never has been. Copies filed with Fenton case.

It exists and its creation was an error and counter to policy when it was issued. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 3/1/2022 at 4:46 PM, RWB said:

The King Farouk export letter exists and license. There's no secret about it - never has been. Copies filed with Fenton case.

No, I meant we didn't know about it until Fenton's lawyer found it.  I didn't mean it was hidden now -- just not known (MAYBE hidden, but probably just not known) back in the 1990's.

I just typed unclearly, Roger. :)

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On 3/1/2022 at 4:48 PM, RWB said:

The Wells Frago and other similar instances are object lessons -- get the information while it's fresh. Each delay loses content and quality.

I still can't believe that by 2012 that key information on the 1983 MTB Hoard wasn't stored digitally somewhere, especially as Bauman got up there in age and Akers got sick. :o

Damn......:mad:

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On 3/1/2022 at 5:07 PM, VKurtB said:

I simply believe that factually never happened, and in the unlikely event it did, it was ended as soon as it was discovered. It was contrary to the FDR admin policy. 

Not saying it happened, just saying it COULD have happened.  And taking a few 1933's and giving in some unworn 1932's or 1931's or even 1924's would have kept the gold inventory 100% unchanged.  They melted them all.....who cares if a few 1933's got taken for collectors and someone put a bunch of 1924's in their place.

No Harm, No Foul. xD

Apparently, people close to Treasury Secretary Woodin or another VIP at Treasury considered saving a few of every year's issue before they all got melted, but it never got very far.  Too bad.....

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On 3/1/2022 at 5:08 PM, VKurtB said:

Like gas station sushi. 

Nobody in their right mind is buying sushi at a gas station. xD

Sushi lovers would never buy it there and the normal gas station clientele probably can't spell sushi.

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On 3/1/2022 at 6:42 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not saying it happened, just saying it COULD have happened.  And taking a few 1933's and giving in some unworn 1932's or 1931's or even 1924's would have kept the gold inventory 100% unchanged.  They melted them all.....who cares if a few 1933's got taken for collectors and someone put a bunch of 1924's in their place.

No Harm, No Foul. xD

Apparently, people close to Treasury Secretary Woodin or another VIP at Treasury considered saving a few of every year's issue before they all got melted, but it never got very far.  Too bad.....

That’s partially because a then quasi governmental agency, the Smithsonian Institution, had taken over the care of the National Coin Collection and already had that niche covered. 

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On 3/1/2022 at 7:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No, I meant we didn't know about it until Fenton's lawyer found it.  I didn't mean it was hidden now -- just not known (MAYBE hidden, but probably just not known) back in the 1990's.

I just typed unclearly, Roger. :)

Erratic filing at Treasury was/is commonplace. The fact that there was an export license does not mean it was filed with other licenses. I frequently find misfiled documents -- guess that's just part of the "vomit."

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On 3/1/2022 at 7:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

No, I meant we didn't know about it until Fenton's lawyer found it. 

They might not have had the physical license (or they might have had it) but it was known to have been issued.  I knew about it long before the Fenton seizure and trial.

On 3/2/2022 at 12:16 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Does anybody know what became of Paul Green of Numismatic News ?

Yes he died maybe 10 years ago or more.  They still recycle his articles from time to time.

Edited by Conder101
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On 3/2/2022 at 10:26 PM, Conder101 said:

They might not have had the physical license (or they might have had it) but it was known to have been issued.  I knew about it long before the Fenton seizure and trial.

But the government must not have known about it, because once Fenton's lawyer had it, they agreed to split the 1933 Saint.

Can I ask how you and a few others found out about the E-I letter while it appears that the government folks did not ?  Seems to be public knowledge to anybody who looked except the feds.

On 3/2/2022 at 10:26 PM, Conder101 said:

Yes he died maybe 10 years ago or more.  They still recycle his articles from time to time.

Too bad, I came across a few of his articles from NN and they were very good.  Guy had some good stuff.(thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Treasury lawyers don't routinely go looking for obscure documents without a reason. Filing systems at Treasury & Mint were/are poorly managed, maintained and indexed. Further, large swathes are missing or known destroyed "to save space." The Fenton case was sufficient impetus for Treasury's own search - regardless of what others ("outsiders") might claim. (My experience was that Treasury would not accept NARA-Certified documents, but insisted on finding them themselves. A large waste of time and work. Big fees for the contractors.)

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The Wells Fargo "Kink":  It's somewhat strange but the WF Hoard did not add linearly to the high-grade 1908 NM's.  The hoard totally dominates the MS-69, 68, and 67 grade level and the huge increase from the WF Hoard is why there are price drops at those grade levels versus other MS-67 commons.

While the numbers of MS-66's and 65's were swollen by the WF Hoard, the numbers from other commons like 1924's still dwarfs them.  So the price discount there for the 1908 NM's, even with the WF Hoard, is not anywhere near that for the MS-67's and MS-68's. 

The price grids in the Burdette Saints book and recent and historical auction prices shed more light on these interesting pricing trends.

Any dealers here ?  Would love to know what you saw in-person in the mid-to-late 1990's when the WF Hoard hit.

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On 3/8/2022 at 10:49 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The Wells Fargo "Kink":  It's somewhat strange but the WF Hoard did not add linearly to the high-grade 1908 NM's.  The hoard totally dominates the MS-69, 68, and 67 grade level and the huge increase from the WF Hoard is why there are price drops at those grade levels versus other MS-67 commons.

While the numbers of MS-66's and 65's were swollen by the WF Hoard, the numbers from other commons like 1924's still dwarfs them.  So the price discount there for the 1908 NM's, even with the WF Hoard, is not anywhere near that for the MS-67's and MS-68's. 

The price grids in the Burdette Saints book and recent and historical auction prices shed more light on these interesting pricing trends.

Any dealers here ?  Would love to know what you saw in-person in the mid-to-late 1990's when the WF Hoard hit.

I was grading at NGC at the time the 1908’s surfaced, so I saw very large quantities of them. If I remember correctly, they were initially submitted to NGC for grading before any of them eventually made their way to PCGS.

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On 3/9/2022 at 5:17 AM, MarkFeld said:

I was grading at NGC at the time the 1908’s surfaced, so I saw very large quantities of them. If I remember correctly, they were initially submitted to NGC for grading before any of them eventually made their way to PCGS.

Mark, do you recall when the industry heard of the discovery if it was public that 19,900 coins had been found or if a more general "large hoard" was used to describe them ?

Obviously, from a pricing perspective, you wouldn't want it known that thousands of new supply are going to hit at each grade level from MS-65 and up.

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On 3/9/2022 at 8:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, do you recall when the industry heard of the discovery if it was public that 19,900 coins had been found or if a more general "large hoard" was used to describe them ?

Obviously, from a pricing perspective, you wouldn't want it known that thousands of new supply are going to hit at each grade level from MS-65 and up.

Sorry, I don't recall, if I even knew in the first place.

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On 3/9/2022 at 10:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not bad for a 1908 WF NM

Thanks very much.  The price gets better after MS 66 and up.

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On 3/9/2022 at 12:30 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Thanks very much.  The price gets better after MS 66 and up.

Is that your coin, Alex ?

What do you mean "the price gets better after MS-66 and up" ??

 

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On 3/9/2022 at 1:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What do you mean "

1.  Yes, it is mine.  I only buy from Northeast Numismatics or Northen Nevada Coin.  I paid, I believe*, about $2500.00.  2.  EBay:  1908 $20 Saint-Gaudens Gold No Motto MS-67 NGC (Wells Fargo) asking $7,248.00 by Apmex

*Memory is old and worn   xD

Edited by Alex in PA.
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Wait a second....$2,800 for an MS-67 Saint, even a 1908 NM ? :o   

That can't be right.....I see 62's and 63's for that price, maybe a 64.

https://www.apmex.com/product/64861/1908-20-saint-gaudens-gold-no-motto-ms-67-ngc-wells-fargo

67's are $7K.  High for what I see elsewhere. 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 3/9/2022 at 1:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wait a second.

Oops!  Sorry, got the 7 and 2 mixed up.  See what happens when you give a Senior Citizen a keyboard.  :roflmao:

Corrected it, thanks.

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"The Best One" MS-69 Wells Fargo Hoard 1908 No Motto for Sale:  Just went up for sale, a month to go.  Bidding over $100,000 right now.  Should be very interesting to see what it goes for.  I thought last time it was sold for $95,000 in the Morse Sale (2005) but maybe it re-sold at a later date for more, I'll have to check. 

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1132876/1908-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-No-Motto-Wells-Fargo-Nevada-Gold-The-Best-One-PCGS-MS-69

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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Canadian Hoards:  Does anybody know of any famous or semi-famous Canadian Hoards, maybe involving Saints ? 

Since we sent alot of gold to the UK and Canada was part of the UK at that time, you'd think alot of American gold would have gone north to Canadian/British banks.

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