Collection Insurance

[spy88]

Fellow Collectors---

 

As most of you (if not all) probably have extensive investments in your collections, I would be interested in knowing how you have them insured, i.e. I know that a value for a slabbed coin is probably used, but how do you determine the value of a raw coin for ins purposes? Through good pics for the insuring company? Through previous sales for similar graded coin(s)? Other?

 

And what about those of you that keep coins in safety deposit boxes? Do you have them insured, or do you use the banks coverage cover them? I would think that they would have to be on your property to be included in a policy. No?

 

Do you use a private insurance company or do you use ANA service? Are there benefits/ disadvantages that you personally go for or dislike?

 

Does price for the insurance affect your coverage from a company, and do you (did you) shop around for cheaper premiums for same coverage?

 

Do certain companies do a better job at customer service, ease of getting coverage, less requirements, etc.?

 

Just looking for a topic that hasn't been covered (as far as I know) for everyone to get involved in!

 

David

[gmarguli]

My expensive coins are in the bank. I have no insurance on them. The odds of them getting stolen from a bank box are so slim that I didn't feel it worth it to pay for the insurance. Having said that, were my collection worth a lot more maybe I would insure it. If they should get damaged (fire, etc) I believe the bank's insurance would/could cover them.

 

The lower priced coins are in a home safe protected by a .357 and a person who has used guns practically all of his life.

[spy88]

Even being in the bank, do you not need an inventory, pics, and valuation for them should the unforseeable happen? I can DEFINITELY see a banks insurance company balking at paying for anything without these proofs of inclusion.

 

Also, are you home 24/7 to do your protecting?

[gmarguli]

I have a list of what I have in there. I keep a list of coins/grade/grading service/serial number/comments. I can get their value thru this. I can also figure out where I purchased them and for what if I needed to.

[TomB]

If you place your collection in a safe deposit box at your bank I can assure you that the bank does not insure the contents of the box. You are responsible for all insurance on your collection.

 

I keep almost everything in several safe deposit boxes in the bank I use. Unfortunately, I have my collection spread across three safe deposit boxes and two local branches since I couldn't get enough space at one branch. This is a trivial matter, though. My collection is insured through the ANA and the premium is 50 cents per $100 coverage as long as its kept in the safe deposit box. Any part of my collection kept at my house is at a premium of $1 per $100 coverage.

 

In my safe deposit box I keep a zip disk with meticulous notes about my collection as well as other financial information. This zip disk is updated and replaced every month. Additionally, all slabbed coins are scanned and another disk holds these images in the safe deposit box. The particulars of each numismatic transaction are kept in a custom Excel spreadsheet that I made for myself and all receipts are kept. All of this is in my safe deposit box.

 

The coins are insured for what I consider replacement value, whether raw or slabbed. This value is determined by me with my knowledge of the hobby/industry. I do not underinsure, for the relatively low cost of insurace it is silly to underinsure. The insurance company has none of my collection details aside for my total insured value and any coins that are worth $5,000 or more each.

[jtryka]

Tom,

 

I agree with just about everything you said. Indeed after the WTC attacks I read a lot of nightmare stories on folks who lost incredible valuables only to find out they were completely uninsured. To me, the coins I have in my safe deposit boxes are pretty safe from theft, but my big worry is fire. Any bank can have a fire, which can significantly damage or destroy a collection, and it's why I would be more hesitant on keeping that zip disk with the coins themselves. I would likely keep multiple copies, one in each bank branch and one at home, just in case. I've also looked around, and the ANA insurance is the cheapest deal, as a rider on most homeowners policies offer no discount for placing them in a bank box.

[gmarguli]

I've also looked around, and the ANA insurance is the cheapest deal, as a rider on most homeowners policies offer no discount for placing them in a bank box.

 

I work in the insurance industry. I'll have someone look into this. There might be more carriers out there that would be willing to write policies. Given the rates that the ANA charges, I'd bet that there is a substantial commission loaded into it.

[TomB]

Any bank can have a fire, which can significantly damage or destroy a collection, and it's why I would be more hesitant on keeping that zip disk with the coins themselves. I would likely keep multiple copies, one in each bank branch and one at home, just in case.

 

That's a good point and I agree with it. One thing I didn't mention is that I keep a hard copy of the Excel spreadsheet as well as another current zip drive for all the information. So, I keep three copies; two electronic and one paper, and have them in multiple places. I've never had to make a claim, but I'm hoping that in the event that I do at least I will be as prepared as can be expected.

[RobertB]

The lower priced coins are in a home safe protected by a .357 and a person who has used guns practically all of his life.

 

Ditto . Except it's a .45 with Federal HydraShoks and a Mossberg 12 gauge with rifled hollow tip slugs.

 

Rob

[GDJMSP]

Well - as one who just had his home broken into and a good part of my collection stolen - I feel I should speak on this issue.

 

I do have insurance and it was always my belief that my collection was covered. Came to find out though as a result of the robbery that it was not insured against theft. Big surprise. So - I would urge each and every one of you who carries private insurance to double check this.

 

Also as a result of this I have found out that even with a replacement coverage rider for insurance policies - items that are stolen or damaged are not covered at full replacement cost. They are in fact depreciated over time. They make no allowance for items such as coins that usually appreciate in value instead of depreciate. They will however cover the full cost if you manage to buy another and send them the receipt. But what happens if you cannot find another coin to replace the one that is gone ? Well - your loss.

 

As for the value of a good safe at home - they are worth every dime they cost. The part of my collection that was stolen was in a good safe - unfortunately I trusted someone with the combination because of the other items I also kept in that safe. The items in the other safes were untouched.

 

Now I was one of the very lucky few - I actually managed to recover almost everything that was stolen. That doesn't happen often. The items that are still missing can be replaced easily enough but it still cost me a few thousand.

 

As for the added protection that owning and knowing how to use a gun is concerned - it does absolutely no good at all if you are not home at the time. In fact they even stole the gun as well. That also was recovered.

 

And as for keeping your coins in a safe deposit box - well it may be considered to be safer than at home, but they have their downside too. One would be the cost. There is no safe deposit box large enough to contain my collection - 3 or 4 of the largest wouldn't even do it. And then there is the risk of fire and/or damage from a sprinkler system even if there isn't a fire. Theft also happens from safe deposit boxes. And it happenes more often than you would think. Banks of course do not advertise this. And as has already been stated there is the insurance problem - banks offer none and many individual policies do not cover them as well. And there is always the risk of environmental damage to your coins in a safe deposit box - temeprature and humidity is not regulated.

 

Bottom line - there is no foolproof method to protect your collection either in a bank or at home. Do what you can and as much as you can and that's the best you can hope for.

[sanmary]

Great advice. We just purchased our first home a month ago and I think I'll put a safe near the top of the things we need list.

[spy88]

This topic I started has had the desired effect of getting everyone involved with situations, problems, solutions, etc. It appears that there is NO one way to do the insurance to the point of being able to replace valuable collections or even one coin, should it be rare enough.

 

The point of depreciation in a policy, when in fact, collections appreciate, is a good one and worth a second look by all regarding your coverage. Home safes offer the collector a solution, but there are the downsides of collection size, position/location of the safe in your home, who has access and who knows it is there. Thieves are notorious for disregarding or respecting your property to get what they want. If they know you will be away from home, I can visualize a chain wrapped around your safe, even from the second floor, with walls and doors in the way, yanking out the safe with a big 4X4 truck. Sure, this will create a lot of noise and destruction, but again, where there is a will there is a way. Should they be quick enough, or lucky, then neighbors will only hear it after it is too late, and the thieves are gone. What if you have no neighbors close by?

Even better for the thieves.

 

Banks are maybe a safer haven, but they also have downsides. Internal climate conditions, no private coverage, having to go someplace else to see your collection, not big enough, etc.

 

What about private security measures that respond to intruder sensors, (maybe not fast enough), or family dogs to be inside when away (can still be dealt with)?

 

Further comments?

[TomB]

It's interesting to read what others have written on this subject. I agree that owning a gun, and knowing how to use it, do absolutely nothing if you are not home. Also, letting others know a combination to a safe on your premises is only asking for trouble, in my opinion, and is to be avoided at all costs. Our house has door and window alarms, as well as motion detectors, and the house is monitored by a central monitoring station and the police. Even with this, I still keep less than $200 or so worth of coins in my home.

 

My insurance is through the ANA and does cover theft. It also does not have any depreciation of the collection since it is specifically for coin collections.

 

The coins that I keep in safe deposit boxes are in slabs, the slabs are in individual Intercept Shield holders, the individual Intercept Shield holders are in Intercept Shield boxes and the Intercept Shield boxes are in food-grade plastic Ziploc bags. This is done this way because older banks have higher relative humidity levels in order to preserve paper and many banks have vaults that are somewhat elevated in temperature. The banks that I use are newer and have much better climate control and venting. The coins should change exceptionally slowly while in the Intercept Shield holders and this change should come to essentially a screaching halt with the individual holders in an Intercept Shield box. I wrap this all up in a Ziploc bag because food-grade plastic cannot contain PVC and by making a good seal around the Intercept Shield box I am making one more barrier against the elements. None of my coins have changed at all while in my safe deposit boxes.

 

Since my policy is specific for coin collections, it also covers holders, albums and all sorts of things like that.

[RobertB]

I wrap this all up in a Ziploc bag because food-grade plastic cannot contain PVC and by making a good seal around the Intercept Shield box I am making one more barrier against the elements.

 

With regards to the use of the Ziploc bags the simplicity is genius . If you think about it I would assume they're virtually inert since they hold our food, and they seal quite tightly, thus making them a very cheap and neutral storage method. I love it.

Perhaps in their next commercial Ziploc can show a bunch of numismatists given the choice of having their coins held over a vat of jewelery dip in either a Ziploc bag or a generic brand. Ohhhhh the horror.

 

Rob

[spy88]

Outstanding protection AND coverage, Tom. Your use of the Ziploc bags also serves a second function---should the bank experience a fire or any problem that would set off their sprinkler system, your collection is virtually water tight, so you have eliminated a few problems associated with the use of a bank deposit box.

 

My insurance is through the ANA and does cover theft. It also does not have any depreciation of the collection since it is specifically for coin collections.

 

As every collector keeps up-grading their collection, can I assume you regularly up-grade your insurance also to keep pace with the increase in value of your collection? How often do you suggest one do this, or do you think it would be on a individual basis?

 

What about you collectors out there that have a part of your collection in currency? I assume there are slabs for them as well, but I am also sure there are some that collect them, but are "raw" as with unslabbed coins. How would you protect these from the elements, at home or in a safety deposit box? Are there different insurance qualifiers concerning "valuable cash"?

 

Greg, you mentioned earlier, you might look into policy riders offering discounts for storage of your collection in a bank rather then at home. Have you found anything yet?

 

Also something to kick around is how proud of your collection are you? Too proud were you tell relative strangers you meet that share the interest of collecting that you have such-and-such? How much do we, as a group of collectors, spread word of our collections? Do we keep mum for all intents and purposes, except here, on the forum or with your local coin store? What about strangers in the shop where you go? Do they overhear you talking about it to a counter-person? Do you hear OTHERS saying too much in this regard? Even at a coin show, how much info do you divulge concerning your collection, its value or certain coins you are exceptionally proud of, (and probably valuable)?

 

Thoughts anyone?

[stman]

My collection is insured through the ANA and the premium is 50 cents per $100 coverage as long as its kept in the safe deposit box. Any part of my collection kept at my house is at a premium of $1 per $100 coverage.

 

Tom, this sounds like very affordable insurance. I'm not a member of the ANA, but have had the thought cross my mind a time or two if I can indeed join.

 

My question is.... are you aware how they would pay in case of loss? To be more clear, lets say you have a loss of some coins (maybe toned, maybe just ones that trade for premiums) that are not the sheet type price coins, and trade for multiples. With no actual established prices?

 

Will they pay what you indeed paid for them, or will they kind of do like the services do with a grade guarantee, and only pay lets say what a white coin in the established sheet prices would trade for? Not sure I've put this question in words properly... but I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

No doubt proof would be needed to actual price paid, if they indeed will pay these premium prices. I rather have my doubts, but I also know you have some of these type of coins I'm referring to. and have probably checked into it.

 

Thanks for any information you can provide.

 

 

[gmarguli]

Greg, you mentioned earlier, you might look into policy riders offering discounts for storage of your collection in a bank rather then at home. Have you found anything yet?

 

When I get back to work this week I'm going to talk to some of the insurance companies and see what they have to say on insuring collectibles.

[TJ]

Greg, you mentioned earlier, you might look into policy riders offering discounts for storage of your collection in a bank rather then at home. Have you found anything yet?

 

When I get back to work this week I'm going to talk to some of the insurance companies and see what they have to say on insuring collectibles.

You have to work this week???

[gmarguli]

Greg, you mentioned earlier, you might look into policy riders offering discounts for storage of your collection in a bank rather then at home. Have you found anything yet?

 

When I get back to work this week I'm going to talk to some of the insurance companies and see what they have to say on insuring collectibles.

You have to work this week???

 

Yes, I have to work this week. Have to wrap up a big project. Just signed up a MAJOR city for insurance and we're trying to get everything wrapped up by Tuesday. It kind of sucks having to work this week, but you wouldn't be laughing if you saw the commission checks.

[IrishMike]

Bank deposit boxes are stolen from more than they would like you to know?? I'd like to see numbers on this. The only person who has access to your safe deposit box is the person with the key. The bank doesn't even had a duplicat key to the box. Boxes require your key and the bank master key to open. Your key will not tell anyone what bank you have you box with just the box number on it. So someone would have to know where your box is and have ID that proves they are you.

 

In the banks I worked in the boxes are in the bank vault. Banks do not allow individuals to go into the vault by themselves. Usually two employess are required to sign in and to lock and open the vault. Since they don't have a key, two employees during the day would have to drill opne the box. Very unlikely that boxes are stolen from.

 

I have had to drill a few over the years due to nonpayment of the fee. This in only done after every means to contact the customer is exhausted. Then it requires two employees who are required to inventory the box on the spot and seal its contents into a tamper prove bag sealed and cinched in lead.

 

A bank cannot insure contents of safe deposit boxes because they have no way of knowing what is in them. Assume a fire destroys the vault, can you imagine how many false claims of valuables would be reported.

[RobertB]

Bank deposit boxes are stolen from more than they would like you to know?? I'd like to see numbers on this. The only person who has access to your safe deposit box is the person with the key. The bank doesn't even had a duplicat key to the box. Boxes require your key and the bank master key to open. Your key will not tell anyone what bank you have you box with just the box number on it. So someone would have to know where your box is and have ID that proves they are you.

 

In the banks I worked in the boxes are in the bank vault. Banks do not allow individuals to go into the vault by themselves. Usually two employess are required to sign in and to lock and open the vault. Since they don't have a key, two employees during the day would have to drill opne the box. Very unlikely that boxes are stolen from.

 

I have had to drill a few over the years due to nonpayment of the fee. This in only done after every means to contact the customer is exhausted. Then it requires two employees who are required to inventory the box on the spot and seal its contents into a tamper prove bag sealed and cinched in lead.

 

A bank cannot insure contents of safe deposit boxes because they have no way of knowing what is in them. Assume a fire destroys the vault, can you imagine how many false claims of valuables would be reported.

 

I always love facts and reliable information. Thanks!

[jtryka]

I tend to agree with Irishmike on this one, but there are a couple of things to consider:

 

1. On rare occasions, safe deposit boxes have been broken into but normally that is the resulf of the thieves specifically targeting a particular box for a particularly valuable item. Most thieves would rather take the large piles of cash from the bank vault than spending the effort to get into what could very well be empty boxes. Still, I can think of at least a handful of incidents involving safe deposit breakins through the years.

 

2. Although the bank cannot open your box without you present with your key, they can be seized by the IRS or other government agencies and then forced open with the proceeds being used for payment of taxes, or just plain seized in the event of drug or terrorist activity. These instances are usually quite rare, though not as rare as the theivery in #1.

 

3. Safe deposit boxes can be moved by the bank. This is again not frequent, but it's happening to me right now, as one branch where my box is located is being consilidated with another branch. In this case the entire line of boxes is being moved en masse by a contractor to the new location. In this case, the contents may be damaged.

 

4. It's important to let someone in your family know about the box. In many cases where folks like Mike have been forced to drill it's due to the passing of the owner, while the family has no idea of the box's existence. Make sure someone knows about it, and include it in a will so it won't end up in the state treasury!

 

Finally, there are some specific provisions of each safe deposit lease agreement that should be known and addressed. For instance my old bank just prohibited storage of coin or currency in boxes, while my current bank has no such prohibitions. Read the agreement carefully before you sign it!

 

 

[TomB]

As every collector keeps up-grading their collection, can I assume you regularly up-grade your insurance also to keep pace with the increase in value of your collection? How often do you suggest one do this, or do you think it would be on a individual basis?

 

What I try to do is insure my collection for a nominal amount more than I believe it is worth when the time comes for renewal. As I add or delete coins from my collection I simply keep a tab on what my estimate of the collection's worth is in relation to what I have it insured for. Of course, individual coins that are $5,000 or more are reported to the insurance company upon addition and any increase in insurance is then pro-rated for the new coin.

 

As for currency, I really can't help at all.

 

Also something to kick around is how proud of your collection are you? Too proud were you tell relative strangers you meet that share the interest of collecting that you have such-and-such? How much do we, as a group of collectors, spread word of our collections? Do we keep mum for all intents and purposes, except here, on the forum or with your local coin store? What about strangers in the shop where you go? Do they overhear you talking about it to a counter-person? Do you hear OTHERS saying too much in this regard? Even at a coin show, how much info do you divulge concerning your collection, its value or certain coins you are exceptionally proud of, (and probably valuable)?

 

I like my collection and I tell the people I work with about it. In my case it's easy to admit that I'm a coin-geek since I am already a science-geek and, as such, everyone I work with is also a science-geek. Therefore, the geek factor is already taken care of. Many people who work in the hospitals that I work in will bring in collections that they have been given so that I can tell them what they have. Sometimes I will also bring in some wildly toned coins just to knock their socks off. We have a geeky-good time.

 

[TomB]

My question is.... are you aware how they would pay in case of loss? To be more clear, lets say you have a loss of some coins (maybe toned, maybe just ones that trade for premiums) that are not the sheet type price coins, and trade for multiples. With no actual established prices?

 

Will they pay what you indeed paid for them, or will they kind of do like the services do with a grade guarantee, and only pay lets say what a white coin in the established sheet prices would trade for? Not sure I've put this question in words properly... but I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

No doubt proof would be needed to actual price paid, if they indeed will pay these premium prices. I rather have my doubts, but I also know you have some of these type of coins I'm referring to. and have probably checked into it.

 

Thankfully, I've never had to find out how they would pay for a loss. The insurance does state that if you have double insurance on the collection that the other insurance will pay out first and that they will pay out second.

 

I don't think they care too much about what you paid for your coins since the actual content of the collection is up to you to tell them when you file. So, they are really only concerned with total value, and not value pre coin. I would imagine that should I lose part of my collection and then get an insurance settlement for it that I would not necessarily buy the same coins.

[Wihlborg]

I like my collection and I tell the people I work with about it. In my case it's easy to admit that I'm a coin-geek since I am already a science-geek and, as such, everyone I work with is also a science-geek. Therefore, the geek factor is already taken care of. Many people who work in the hospitals that I work in will bring in collections that they have been given so that I can tell them what they have. Sometimes I will also bring in some wildly toned coins just to knock their socks off. We have a geeky-good time.

 

John

 

[gmarguli]

From the info that was pulled for me there are 35 companies operating in the US that will insure collectibles (not just coins, but practically anything you can collect). We conduct some business with one of these companies. I'm going to have them contacted in the next couple of days to see what their rates are and if they will insure coins and then go to some of the other carriers to see what they can offer. I'll keep people updated, but this is the busiest time of the year for us so it might take some time.