• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

I Need Help on an 1889-CC Morgan Silver Dollar (pics)

21 posts in this topic

Hi there. This is my first post on this forum and I need some advice. I recently sold an 1889-CC on ebay on September 20th. The buyer is now saying he sent the coin into ANACS and they said it was counterfeit but he refuses to forward any and all correspondence with ANACS. I've posted some pics on here for you to examine. The coin passes the ring test easily, weighs 26.68 grams and measures exactly 38.1mm in diameter. The edge is also reeded. It also looks to have been cleaned at some point. I've had the coin examined by three coin dealers and they all said it was genuine. It came from an estate that I purchased that contained over a hundred Morgan Silver Dollars, many different dates including many keys. The coins were collected by an individual who stopped collecting 20 years ago so the coin was acquired and stored for quite some time. I believe the coin I sold was genuine and I am thinking he either a.) decided he needed the money back or b.) is switching it out and sending me back a real counterfeit coin. The buyer was fishy from the get go and took a long time to pay. He started a buyer dispute with paypal which puts my Paypal account minus $1,091 in the hole. He says he's shipping the coin back to me when he receives it back from ANACS. Here are some pictures of the coin. What do you think?? Thank you.

 

173306202_o.jpg

173306218_o.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks counterfeit to me -

Obverse - Date looks too big - nine not position properly - Stars look to big

Reverse - Arrow tail feathers are plain wrong looking - Eagles toes are spread too far apart - Second layer of wing feathering detail is missing off right wing.

 

This is my viewpoint which may differ from others.

 

You have his name - Call ANACS and tell them the situation and ask them if in fact they did certified it counterfeit. There is a good bit of money involved so I think they will help you out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of contacting ANACS and explaining the situation to them. If they examined a coin submitted by the buyer, you can even forward your images to them and see what they say. And if he sends back a different coin, you have these images for comparison.

 

Sorry for your trouble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks counterfeit to me -

Obverse - Date looks too big - nine not position properly - Stars look to big

Reverse - Arrow tail feathers are plain wrong looking - Eagles toes are spread too far apart - Second layer of wing feathering detail is missing off right wing.

 

This is my viewpoint which may differ from others.

 

You have his name - Call ANACS and tell them the situation and ask them if in fact they did certified it counterfeit. There is a good bit of money involved so I think they will help you out.

 

Mike, the date looks okay. One of the varieties has a "high 9", but the denticles and the arrow feathers don't look right. The lettering and date just look too polished.

 

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the image...the coin looks like a counterfeit to me :o

 

I am looking at diagnostics for the 1889-CC but just other morgans in general. With the coin being cleaned or polished it could make it look off even if it's a genuine coin so I would have to see it in hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of counterfeit or genuine, the piece appears to have been polished and this should have been noticed immediately by anyone who examined it in-hand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to the forum Ezekiel. I don't know if it's the pics or what but this coin looks a little strange to me. It looks cleaned for sure. Can't really judge on the rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My 2 cents worth...

 

I also don't care for the polished look. Someone did a number on the surfaces.

 

I posted this information a while back but glad to repeat it. From "Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection", there are a few things to look for in determining authenticity of an 89 CC. First, these are frequently altered by adding the CC.

 

Check the CC under magnification if you can to see if it "flows" into the surface of the coin. Added CC's will show a seam where the CC was glued on.

 

A good number (but not all) authentic 89 CC's have a raised die line in Liberty's cap, between the Liberty banner and the leaf. I don't see it in your photos.

 

Also, many 89 CC's (but again, not all) have a faint die crack through the date, and later die states have the crack running left to the tip of the bust and through the stars. This is not present in your pictures.

 

One more thing I checked...in Breen's Encyclopedia of U S and Colonial Coins, it states that in the CC mintmark, the second C slightly lower than the first and leaning slightly to the left. I don't see that in your pictures either.

 

In sum...I don't feel good about the coin you posted.

 

RI AL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1889cc-1-1-1.jpg

 

 

I do not think this is the first time we (here or maybe ATS) have seen this Morgan. If I'm not mistaken, that rim contact mark on Miss Liberties neck looks familiar and I think it has been previously discussed. Could be just a coincidence here…but, the device & letter edges look mushy and rounded, with an overall lack of definition to detail in all aspects. (this blending effect could be from a previous polishing with an abrasive compound such as jewelers rouge on a buffing wheel)

 

Perhaps this may jog someones memory.

 

This one needs to be left up to a professional Morgan grader.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, welcome to the board Ezekial. Sorry you are having such a time.

I agree with most, especially Mike. I, too, feel that there is something wrong with the '9' even when looking at the high '9' Chris mentioned and for sure the stars. As was previously stated, the polishing makes it extremely difficult to tell much from the pics.

I can find no evidence of the spread of the talons being wider in any VAM.

I feel I agree that this coin is not authentic.

One thing to consider about your buyer, they may feel that they have been had so they are upset and maybe not handling things as professional as they would normally. This is after all a large sum of money.

Were it my coin, I would refund it if I felt it was the same coin I sent, merely because the buyer was not happy with it. It is a shame they filed against you without offering you a chance to make it right.

Mark Feld offered some excellent advice, and I would take it. Perhaps, someone on this board could even recommend who you might talk to at ANACS in this regards.

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you have a good relationship with the members of the estsate this coin came from.

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you to all who replied. As I stated in my original post, I already KNOW this coin was polished or cleaned. That is easy to tell with a glance. With all of the suggestions from all of you I am thinking it is a counterfeit as well, albeit a damn good one. It is very heavily polished which could account for some of the anomalies but not all of them. I suppose I will just have to send it into ANACS myself to be sure. Thanks again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EZ you obviously know a little about coins.

 

Why didn’t you submit to a TPG, especially on such a widely counterfeited coin?

 

I work in a coin shop actually. What is a TPG??

 

Top Professional Grader

 

NGC, PCGS, ANACS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EZ you obviously know a little about coins.

 

Why didn’t you submit to a TPG, especially on such a widely counterfeited coin?

 

I work in a coin shop actually. What is a TPG??

 

Top Professional Grader

 

NGC, PCGS, ANACS

 

Usually TPG is understood to stand for Third Party Grader.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TPGS stands for Third Party Grading service

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

the coin from the photos is to me a no brainer counterfeit

 

from the photos only

 

sight seen might be different

Link to comment
Share on other sites