An Interview with JOHN ALBANESE by Maurice Rosen 2 2

[MarkFeld]

Since so many people here seem to think that Mr. Albanese is the greatest grader in the history of numismatics and the ultimate savior of the industry from over grading why shouldn’t we concerned about his exit from the two firms he started?

Bill, please cite just a single source/example for your above statement. I bet you can't, because you have exaggerated what others have said in order to make your point.

 

I guess you have not bothered to read one post after another in this string and elsewhere that indicate that Mr. Albanese can do no wrong. I’ve never seen such glowing remarks made about anyone in this business, including some of the great authors who given us some wonderful books. Read the messages; don’t yell at me. Mr. Albanese almost looks like a cult figure.

 

It's clear that if CAC succeeds his company will invalidate the PCGS and NGC grades on great many expensive coins if those pieces are not presented to and approved by his minions. It is disappointing that you are unable or unwilling to grasp that concept. When someone reaches into other people’s pocketbooks don’t expect those who are harmed financially to thank him for it.

Bill, I have read a great many posts in various CAC threads, yet haven't seen a single one/person praise Mr. Albanese in the exaggerated way that you stated. Again, please cite just a single source/example for your above statement - it should be easy, if, as you say, it's in "one post after another".

 

And I didn't "yell" at you - I accused you of exaggerating to make your point, and I stand by that now. Lastly, I didn't see anyone asking you or anyone else "to thank him for it" - another exaggeration on your part.

[CHABSENTIA]

Since so many people here seem to think that Mr. Albanese is the greatest grader in the history of numismatics and the ultimate savior of the industry from over grading why shouldnt we concerned about his exit from the two firms he started?

Bill, please cite just a single source/example for your above statement. I bet you can't, because you have exaggerated what others have said in order to make your point.

 

I guess you have not bothered to read one post after another in this string and elsewhere that indicate that Mr. Albanese can do no wrong. Ive never seen such glowing remarks made about anyone in this business, including some of the great authors who given us some wonderful books. Read the messages; dont yell at me. Mr. Albanese almost looks like a cult figure.

 

It's clear that if CAC succeeds his company will invalidate the PCGS and NGC grades on great many expensive coins if those pieces are not presented to and approved by his minions. It is disappointing that you are unable or unwilling to grasp that concept. When someone reaches into other peoples pocketbooks dont expect those who are harmed financially to thank him for it.

Bill, I have read a great many posts in various CAC threads, yet haven't seen a single one/person praise Mr. Albanese in the exaggerated way that you stated. Again, please cite just a single source/example for your above statement - it should be easy, if, as you say, it's in "one post after another".

 

And I didn't "yell" at you - I accused you of exaggerating to make your point, and I stand by that now. Lastly, I didn't see anyone asking you or anyone else "to thank him for it" - another exaggeration on your part.

 

I have mentioned it several times. Albanese in the Rosen Interview seems to have distanced himself from his time at PCGS and NGC. He talks about policing the TPGs but not about his time at them. I have not once heard him even compare the situation today or what he thinks it is today with his time at PCGS or NGC.

 

When I have read articles about the new head of ANA then there is talk about his History. When you talk about Taylor and the ICG/ANACS deal then there is talk about the History of each.You just don't see it in any of the conversations with Albanese.

 

He has also set himself up as somebody who feels that he can at least correct the present situation that he claims exists today. Yet he also admits that " Graders make mistakes". So what exists in CAC that his Graders are not going to incorrectly sticker coins?This itself also implies an elitist attitude.

 

He was the Co Founder of one of the two firms and the Founder of another.This is a fact. What were the circumstances of his exits and was there a clause that he could not start another Grading Company and if so then what is the time frame.?If there was a time frame and it has ended then how soon did it end before he founded CAC etc?

 

I agree with Bill Jones and I have listed many other Possibilites that may or may not happen, The Problem is that if they do happen there will be a great turmoil to Collectors as a result.

 

Who is to say that his standards are not too strict? If this is the case then if CAC is accepted to any degree then this will even put into question even correctly graded slabs up to now. I would consider this an Elitist attitude. Logic would tell you that if he is going to issue a different colr sticker for an upgrade that the standards would have to be very strict to reduce any Liability on their part because people would be demanding upgrades.

 

So I would consider the Lack of information and the implied attitudes to be a concern as well as further divisions such as A and B etc.

 

Nobody esle has come along and started a concern to evaluate thr already established TPGs. This alone demonstrates an attitude.You have already seen an instance where Delaers are statinf that CAC is uncorrect. How many Dealers are going to admit that their coins were rejescted by CAC etc

 

It would seem Logical that if JA was proud of his experiences etc at TPG #1 and #2 that he would be shouting it to the Stars.Why not make the comparison between then and now?It seems to me that in all his Interviews that he only wants to talk about the positive effects that CAC can bring. Not putting this comparison in relation to his previous experiences sets off a alarm for me in light of Future possibilites.

 

One does not have ot come out and say that they think they are better etc when actions seem to imply it.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

It would seem Logical that if JA was proud of his experiences etc at TPG #1 and #2 that he would be shouting it to the Stars.

 

Sometimes, when you actually know WTF you are doing, you don't have to beat your own drum.

[IGWT]

I think "toot your own horn" is the metaphor you intended.

[James_OldeTowne]

Hi all. It is not a secret book. It was written by Scott Travers, "How to make money in coins right now". John Albanese, David Hall, and Jesse Lipka are interviewed.

That is the one single book that I hate more than all the others I've ever read involving coins, with the possible exception being any "blue book". "How To Make Money In Coins Right Now" is a downright disgusting diatribe, in my not-so-humble opinion. I read it cover to cover, and I am not joking here, I threw the book in the garbage. I can't recall any other book I've ever disposed of.

[mommam17]

But you did learn why John Albanese left 1 of the TPG`s?

[CHABSENTIA]

But you did learn why John Albanese left 1 of the TPG`s?

 

Why does one have to search for it ?Why can' JA say in one of his interviews. "I started CAC becuase when I was at TPG #1 or #2 I........." or when Rosen says " when we were grading coins" why can't Rosen ask " when you were at TPG .........".ETC.

[BillJones]

Hi all. It is not a secret book. It was written by Scott Travers, "How to make money in coins right now". John Albanese, David Hall, and Jesse Lipka are interviewed.

That is the one single book that I hate more than all the others I've ever read involving coins, with the possible exception being any "blue book". "How To Make Money In Coins Right Now" is a downright disgusting diatribe, in my not-so-humble opinion. I read it cover to cover, and I am not joking here, I threw the book in the garbage. I can't recall any other book I've ever disposed of.

 

By the way, I will not do business with Travers, period. Besides the book, I was involved with a client who got taken to the cleaners by his company, and he can try to sue me all he wants for saying so on this public forum.

 

I’m glad that someone else has not been enraptured by the writings of Mr. Travers. He has made some positive contributions with respect to consumer protection in the coin industry, but his high handed tone based upon the premise that he is ALWAYS right, ALWAYS perfect and ALWAYS better than anyone else wears on you after a while.

[cladking]

Then you have modern coins which represents an almost infinite supply going into the future, assuming the market remains buoyant. Also, PCGS and NGC are into other fields besides coins, including paper money, gemstones, comic books, cards and so on.

 

.

 

I'll withhold most comments since he didn't intentionally slam moderns.

 

But do have to comment on one point he raised. He suggested that moderns were at risk of going down the tubes because of the way the mint is apparently enterring an era of overproduction of issues and varieties. If this does happen the market won't magically collapse only back to 1965. People getting out of the hobby and cleaning up the ashes will dispose of all of their coins even if they are 200 years old.

 

Indeed, if this were to come to pass it's likely that it's the modern collectors who will be less hurt because of the larger share of bullion that their coins represent. An Unc $5 Ike will still be worth $1.

 

This divorce so many people feel for moderns is not healthy for the hobby.

[IGWT]

But you did learn why John Albanese left 1 of the TPG`s?

 

I've read the book -- and just reread every page where John Albanese is mentioned -- and there is nothing libelous, salacious, or even the least bit controversial. In fact, Travers is nothing but complimentary toward John Albanese. As for the report of why he left PCGS, this is all that Travers writes:

 

Soon after PCGS began operations in Newport Beach in February 1986, one of its organizers, highly respected coin dealer John Albanese, withdrew and began drafting plans for a new grading service of his own. Albanese felt that PCGS had an Achilles' heel: the possible conflict posted by the fact that its principals were dealing in coins. He set out to form a service that would offer the best of both worlds -- the professionalism of PCGS and the independence of ANACS. In the process, he stopped buying and selling coins himself.

 

S. Travers, How to Make Money in Coins Right Now, 51 (2d ed. 2001).

 

Oooooooooooooooooooo! Sue me.

[GoldFinger1969]

Wow, what a great read with the interview between JA and MR.  

I'm going to now hit the comments.  I suspect that there is heated back-and-forth from a quick glance.  

Edited February 4, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Cat Bath]

On 7/9/2008 at 3:40 PM, EZ_E said:

MR: Of all the coinage series, which ones have the best and least chance of being labeled?

JA: MS-65 and MS-66 $20 Saints have a much lower success rate of being stickered. Why? We see them differently. We have a different standard. I don’t think it’s a secret. If you would ask the typical dealer or collector what area the services should be grading tighter, they’d probably say $20 Saints. That’s unfortunate as $20 Saints have often been regarded as a “poster coin” for investment numismatics.

Out of the 18 saints in my collection, only 2 have stickers & I'm not thoroughly impressed with one of them.

I guess my standards are a bit different also.

One thing I will say about CAC though is that it seems to keep the big money away from the ones I'm interested in even though I'm not opposed to going nuclear if I have to.

[GoldFinger1969]

22 minutes ago, Cat Bath said:

Out of the 18 saints in my collection, only 2 have stickers & I'm not thoroughly impressed with one of them.  I guess my standards are a bit different also.

I originally thought that grading standards loosened in the early-1990's but I've been since corrected that it was the late-1990's or more so the early-2000's.   2004 is specifically given as the dividing line between technical and market grading.

Edited February 4, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[mommam17]

Bill Jones, wow here we are 13 years later and CAC is highly successful!!!!. Ha, they didn't fail, did they?

Edited February 18, 2021 by mommam17

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:01 PM, Cat Bath said:

Out of the 18 saints in my collection, only 2 have stickers & I'm not thoroughly impressed with one of them.

I guess my standards are a bit different also. One thing I will say about CAC though is that it seems to keep the big money away from the ones I'm interested in even though I'm not opposed to going nuclear if I have to.

Nice !!  What is your favorite or most scarce Saint in your collection, Cat ?

[numisport]

On 7/16/2008 at 8:15 PM, IGWT said:

 

I've read the book -- and just reread every page where John Albanese is mentioned -- and there is nothing libelous, salacious, or even the least bit controversial. In fact, Travers is nothing but complimentary toward John Albanese. As for the report of why he left PCGS, this is all that Travers writes:

 

 

 

S. Travers, How to Make Money in Coins Right Now, 51 (2d ed. 2001).

 

Oooooooooooooooooooo! Sue me.

That's kind of an odd quote. Of course JA buys and sells coins.

[GoldFinger1969]

Can't see what Travers wrote...can you summarize ?

EDIT:  Never mind, it appears PCGS principals were dealing in coins in a way that presented conflict-of-interest situations.  Or something like that.

Edited February 18, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, numisport said:

That's kind of an odd quote. Of course JA buys and sells coins.

Maybe not when CAC first started...or maybe with restrictions.  Clearly, he was implying that PCGS's founders could be inviting conflict-of-interest with their SPECIFIC dealings.

It's like when you are in the financial industry.  You can invest...even trade AGAINST your clients....so long as you disclose the nature and timing of it.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Respectfully, by whom or what entity, and when? And does fear and/or favor play into this?

A few vets here and at CT.  There were looser/tighter periods during the 1986-2000 period but not to the same extent as happened around 2004.  As I understand it, it is when market grading took over from technical grading. 

[numisport]

On 2/18/2021 at 1:49 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe not when CAC first started...or maybe with restrictions.  Clearly, he was implying that PCGS's founders could be inviting conflict-of-interest with their SPECIFIC dealings.

It's like when you are in the financial industry.  You can invest...even trade AGAINST your clients....so long as you disclose the nature and timing of it.

By now it's no secret that for years PCGS used a 'board of experts' that were PCGS ONLY dealers. That must have flown right into JA's face so I think he did just the right thing moving on with NGC and then his own verification company. Keep in mind he does not grade coins, only verifies they are A or B and not C quality. This PCGS conflict of interest may be working itself out now with new management but I'm not privy to that situation. This conflict with PCGS board of experts has been exposed in the past but many over there ATS don't mind or care. One attitude really made me pause when I confronted a major dealer who just happened to be a board of experts member about why they were regrading Newman pieces. Their response was "they were not marketable in NGC holders". This was fine with me as I have some PCGS coins that I crossed to NGC thus now these coins have 2 opinions. However from the outside it just smacks a conflict because this dealer is a PCGS only dealer.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, numisport said:

By now it's no secret that for years PCGS used a 'board of experts' that were PCGS ONLY dealers. That must have flown right into JA's face so I think he did just the right thing moving on with NGC and then his own verification company.

Not being a long-time vet, that's news to me.  Feel free to give more color on that situation.  Who or what were these "PCGS-only" dealers ?  I know some dealers may have more PCGS and/or more CAC than others...but exclusive is news to me.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[numisport]

7 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not being a long-time vet, that's news to me.  Feel free to give more color on that situation.  Who or what were these "PCGS-only" dealers ?  I know some dealers may have more PCGS and/or more CAC than others...but exclusive is news to me.

 

There is no longer any mention of a 'board of experts' at PCGS and I must assume they recognize that conflict as a legal challenge. David Hall and Legend Numismatics may have had one in a thousand inventory offerings in NGC holders and other PCGS only dealers would sometimes offer a lowball NGC coin next to another PCGS coin only to lend artificial contrast that could further offset price guide differences. While these practices were not real obvious to most, it's just like politics in that many dealers know this happens but won't say a word until they offer really nice NGC material. Then the playing field levels. Don't you think it's interesting how most dealers say PCGS coins almost always sell for more money than similar NGC coins but they can't look you straight in the face and explain why (because the truth is to the right but they are turning left).

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, numisport said:

There is no longer any mention of a 'board of experts' at PCGS and I must assume they recognize that conflict as a legal challenge. David Hall and Legend Numismatics may have had one in a thousand inventory offerings in NGC holders and other PCGS only dealers would sometimes offer a lowball NGC coin next to another PCGS coin only to lend artificial contrast that could further offset price guide differences. While these practices were not real obvious to most, it's just like politics in that many dealers know this happens but won't say a word until they offer really nice NGC material. Then the playing field levels. Don't you think it's interesting how most dealers say PCGS coins almost always sell for more money than similar NGC coins but they can't look you straight in the face and explain why (because the truth is to the right but they are turning left).

I could be wrong, but I'd say that except at the high-end for the super-rich collectors (who care for whatever reason), that the PCGS Premium has been coming DOWN (IMO) the last few years.  The entire premium thing may have been -- for legit reasons or not -- PCGS was seen as grading conservatively and NGC was grading looser....or that's how people PERCEIVED it, true or not.  For whatever reason, PCGS coins traded at a slight/noticeable premium.

And now, for whatever reasons, I think the gap has closed.  Aesthetically, I actually love some of the newer NGC labels and slabs.  In fact, I wonder if part of the NGC "discount" was when they had that white slab that totally encircled the coin (I personally hate that look, sorry NGC ! ).

Seriously, I do love the current NGC slabs and labels.  Bought a few at FUN 2020 and from HA, GC, and Ebay the last year or so, far more than PCGS stuff, a reversal from 3-5 years or so ago.

Edited February 20, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[MAULEMALL]

On 7/10/2008 at 6:43 PM, gmarguli said:

What bull mess! John admits not to grading the actual coin, but rather deciding if the submitter deserves to make that much money. This coin is clearly an MS66+, but I'll call it an MS64 as it should be a $200 coin?

 

I'm sorry, but if a grader handed me back the coin I PAID them to grade and said, it's an MS66 at least, but that would command $X which is too much in my opinion, so I market graded it MS64, I'd kick him in the nuts.

 

Perhaps John (and others who have made this same comment) should understand that their job is to certify the grade of the coin, not try to determine how much money the coin should sell for. It's mess like this that causes grades to be all over the place. Place the blame on John for this! Next time he talks about overgrades and undergrades, tell him his BS market grading and his failure to do his job is directly responsible for this problem that he wants us to pay him to clean up. If all the graders ever did was grade the coin based on the condition of the coin, the market would adjust and function normally over time. Too bad the some of the graders like to play god and tamper with the free market by screwing around with the grades.

 

 

No, you're doing a competent job if you grade that coin MS65 and don't let the value play a role in determining that grade. I don't have any grading reference books with me right now, but I can't recall ever seeing VALUE as one of the determining factors in grading. Maybe I missed that?

 

 

If the grader said “The coin has a couple marks, but it’s okay for a 65.” then I don't see where gradeflation comes in. The grader said the marks on the coin were OK for the MS65 grade. Sounds good to me. It wouldn't sound good to me if the graders said the coin has the marks of an MS65, but bid is currently too high on MS65, so let's call it MS63.

 

 

I've never really understood this. The graders at the TPG are generally considered near the top of the game when it comes to grading. And we're supposed to believe that they somehow forget how to grade and need a refresher course to remind them of what an MS64 should look like?

 

Oh yeah, does CAC have a grading set? :shrug:

 

 

But the CAC gets to be the determining party in whether they screwed up. This is no different than what the TPG do. Or does the CAC have an outside organization that reviews their coins for them like John suggested for the TPG? Only seems fair!

 

 

 

The dealers who submit large quantities of coins are ALWAYS saying that the TPGs have tightened up on grading. And the dealers who try to pretend that they deal at only the high end of the market ALWAYS complain that the TPG are spewing out overgraded garbage, but they cherrypicked the best for their clients.

This post should be pinned for every newbie to read before they buy a slabbed/beaned coin

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, MAULEMALL said:

This post should be pinned for every newbie to read before they buy a slabbed/beaned coin

It did seem to reveal something many have suspected but nobody has gone on the record with.  Maybe we misunderstood JA and he meant something other than what we are thinking he said ?

Unless he's saying that EVERYBODY has to take into account market grading.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

It did seem to reveal something many have suspected but nobody has gone on the record with.  Maybe we misunderstood JA and he meant something other than what we are thinking he said ?

Unless he's saying that EVERYBODY has to take into account market grading.

He is, precisely. He’s no different than an arsonist on the fire fighting crew.

[Henri Charriere]

19 hours ago, MAULEMALL said:

This post should be pinned for every newbie to read before they buy a slabbed/beaned coin

So what's new... twelve years later?  If you go to the doctor, you get a diagnosis from a licensed physician.  You're even free to go get a "second opinion" again, from a licensed professional.  Exactly what credentials must a grader present on request... for an opinion?  Very charming fraternity.

[MAULEMALL]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

So what's new... twelve years later?  If you go to the doctor, you get a diagnosis from a licensed physician.  You're even free to go get a "second opinion" again, from a licensed professional.  Exactly what credentials must a grader present on request... for an opinion?  Very charming fraternity.

Yawn... Oh .. it's Quintus.... 
Night night...

[Henri Charriere]

11 minutes ago, MAULEMALL said:

Yawn... Oh .. it's Quintus.... 
Night night...

Make more of what's yours. I just renewed my membership and NGC welcomed me back with open arms.

[MAULEMALL]

1 minute ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Make more of what's yours. I just renewed my membership and NGC welcomed me back with open arms.

So you're still paying for friends?