Aha! Just as I figured: CAC goals redefined!

[Oldtrader3]

I will take a solid support position for CAC on gold coins, probably because CAC is the nearest thing to insurance that I can get, sight unseen, for a gold coin, considering all the dipped, wiped trash out there. This philosophy also applies to many classic coin series. I don't have as strong an opinion about CAC stickering on many other coins (i.e widgets and modern).

[EZ_E]

I will take a solid support position for CAC on gold coins, probably because CAC is the nearest thing to insurance that I can get, sight unseen, for a gold coin, considering all the dipped, wiped trash out there. This philosophy also applies to many classic coin series. I don't have as strong an opinion about CAC stickering on many other coins (i.e widgets and modern).

 

Excellent point!!!!!!

[gmarguli]

I will take a solid support position for CAC on gold coins, probably because CAC is the nearest thing to insurance that I can get, sight unseen, for a gold coin, considering all the dipped, wiped trash out there. This philosophy also applies to many classic coin series. I don't have as strong an opinion about CAC stickering on many other coins (i.e widgets and modern).

 

Excellent point!!!!!!

 

Except that based on a Bust dollar that was posted here a few months ago, CAC will sticker offensively dipped coins.

[Oldtrader3]

Greg, I guess that is the human fraility of any subjective opinion system. The accuracy of an individual human making a subjective evaluation is about 86%. IMHO, even a second set of eyes does not improve that % more than a few statistical points (maybe up to 92%).

[michael]

many OFFICIAL CAC dealers

call cac coins PQ for the grade with exceptional eye appeal in word and in many print ads on the internet web pages and also in coin world and numismatic news to name a few

 

it is unfortunate that the powers that be cant police or control the ignorance

and finally set the record straight with their member dealers

 

better to be crystal clear than clear as mud

[michael]

my standards for grade and eye appeal

are much tighter than CAC standards

[Oldtrader3]

So are mine, Michael. However, I have seen some CAC gold coins that are decently graded.

[EZ_E]

Greg, I guess that is the human fraility of any subjective opinion system. The accuracy of an individual human making a subjective evaluation is about 86%. IMHO, even a second set of eyes does not improve that % more than a few statistical points (maybe up to 92%).

 

Charlie, your statement reminded me of an old thread I started after reading a book by David Hall that Michael gave to me.

 

An experienced grader is usually right on the money about 85% of the time. Still, that leaves a 15% marging for error. Ok then, put another grader in the formula and now you get a 90% accuracy rate. Add a third grader in the pot and now we approach a 99% rate of accuracy. Of course, the more graders who must agree then the greater the accuracy.

 

You sound just like David Hall when he used to give the speeches at the shows back when PCGS was just starting.

 

According to DH the accuracy rate they expect from their graders is 70%. I thought that was shockingly low. If I only hit 70% on the coins I submit I'd be out of this business extremely quick. However, in fairness to them I don't have to know 100 different series. I had heard it used to be 85% years ago.

 

One of the problems with what you are suggesting is when that 3rd grader only looks at the slab for a quick second and only makes a change if there is a major error. The 3rd grader grades the coin PF65, but the slab says PF64. Is he likely going to change that grade? Is the coin a misgrade? A $30 coin is graded MS68 when the 3rd grader thinks MS67 (a $25 coin) should be the real grade. Are they going to do something about it? A lot of misgrades likely go thru as OK because it is in the interest of the grading service to let it slip thru or it is too small to matter.

 

Now that 2nd grader. All he does is validate the 1st graders opinion. I once heard that about 15% of the coins get a different grade than what the 1st grader gives it. Now, if you're looking for 70% accuracy and only 15% of the coin grades are changed, then there is potentially 15% of coins going thru the service that aren't graded properly.

[Oldtrader3]

Before my ex-company had computer optical inspection systems, we used to visually rework entire lots (250,000 units each) of rejected medical products overseen by human Q.A. inspectors. The inspectors were trained Q.A. people and had an average of (10+) years experience, as did the rework operators. After years of collecting engineering data on rework accuracy, these accuracy figures held true, year after year. Our company made 300,000,000 widgits a year and human Q.A cost us millions of dollars but we could never get our complaint rate down below about 40/1MM assemblies. This was with (2) levels of inspection and a final audit inspection. When we commercialized computer vision on automated assembly, our complaint rate went down to 3/10MM products.

[James_OldeTowne]

One more quick point. I've seen several people, including principles of CAC, say that you can just "ignore the sticker" if you want to. If they want that to be true, then why slap it smack dab near the center of the front of the slab? It's kind of tough to ignore. I think it would have been much better to discreetly place it in a lower corner of the back of the slab.

[michael]

One more quick point. I've seen several people, including principles of CAC, say that you can just "ignore the sticker" if you want to. If they want that to be true, then why slap it smack dab near the center of the front of the slab? It's kind of tough to ignore. I think it would have been much better to discreetly place it in a lower corner of the back of the slab.

 

 

(thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u (thumbs u

[MarkFeld]

One more quick point. I've seen several people, including principles of CAC, say that you can just "ignore the sticker" if you want to. If they want that to be true, then why slap it smack dab near the center of the front of the slab? It's kind of tough to ignore. I think it would have been much better to discreetly place it in a lower corner of the back of the slab.

After reading your post, I looked at two CAC stickered coins I have, in order to refresh my memory concerning where stickers are affixed on the holders. If you are truly distracted by the stickers, then I submit to you that you need to learn how to better focus and concentrate on coins when you're examining them. Seriously.

[Conder101]

I will take a solid support position for CAC on gold coins, probably because CAC is the nearest thing to insurance that I can get, sight unseen, for a gold coin, considering all the dipped, wiped trash out there.

Odd, that was supposed to be what slabbing cured. Now we have to have a sticker to do what the slabs were supposed to do. Do you think in a few years we will need something else to do what the stickers were supposed to do because the slabs weren't doing what they were supposed to do?

[James_OldeTowne]

One more quick point. I've seen several people, including principles of CAC, say that you can just "ignore the sticker" if you want to. If they want that to be true, then why slap it smack dab near the center of the front of the slab? It's kind of tough to ignore. I think it would have been much better to discreetly place it in a lower corner of the back of the slab.

After reading your post, I looked at two CAC stickered coins I have, in order to refresh my memory concerning where stickers are affixed on the holders. If you are truly distracted by the stickers, then I submit to you that you need to learn how to better focus and concentrate on coins when you're examining them. Seriously.

Mark, I was making a point that may be shared by numerous collectors. When one peers into a case full of certified coins, and there are stickers on the front of most of them, wouldn't you agree that it isn't easy to "ignore" the stickers?

 

Given that at least some collectors will be turned away by a stigma attached to the stickers (the assumption that the coin will automatically be priced at a premium), it seems sensible to me to have the stickers on the back of the slab. The exact same purpose is accomplished, with no chance of immediately turning away some kinds of shoppers.

 

For me personally, the sticker doesn't affect examination of the coin at all. But for some, the sticker will not be "ignorable" (if there is such a word) while it is blatantly placed on the front of the slab.

 

My earlier post was intended as constructive criticism.

[EZ_E]

I agree with you, James, the back would be best to place the sticker.

 

I was just reading an article by Rick Tomaska and his definition of a CAC sticker equates with premium quality.

 

Once again, this is the only beef that I have with the concept. As someone mentioned earlier, if the CAC sticker is to denote a PQ status then it should be a different color than the coin that just made their approval.

[MarkFeld]

One more quick point. I've seen several people, including principles of CAC, say that you can just "ignore the sticker" if you want to. If they want that to be true, then why slap it smack dab near the center of the front of the slab? It's kind of tough to ignore. I think it would have been much better to discreetly place it in a lower corner of the back of the slab.

After reading your post, I looked at two CAC stickered coins I have, in order to refresh my memory concerning where stickers are affixed on the holders. If you are truly distracted by the stickers, then I submit to you that you need to learn how to better focus and concentrate on coins when you're examining them. Seriously.

Mark, I was making a point that may be shared by numerous collectors. When one peers into a case full of certified coins, and there are stickers on the front of most of them, wouldn't you agree that it isn't easy to "ignore" the stickers?

 

Given that at least some collectors will be turned away by a stigma attached to the stickers (the assumption that the coin will automatically be priced at a premium), it seems sensible to me to have the stickers on the back of the slab. The exact same purpose is accomplished, with no chance of immediately turning away some kinds of shoppers.

 

For me personally, the sticker doesn't affect examination of the coin at all. But for some, the sticker will not be "ignorable" (if there is such a word) while it is blatantly placed on the front of the slab.

 

My earlier post was intended as constructive criticism.

James, I can only speak for myself, but I have no problem ignoring CAC (or any other type of) stickers that sellers might have on the holders. My guess is that most others possess the same magical powers that I do.

 

And the assumption that "the coin will automatically be priced at a premium" is flat out wrong in many instances. Why not deal with reality, rather than assumptions and speculation?

 

My posts are intended as constructive reality.

[Conder101]

Given that at least some collectors will be turned away by a stigma attached to the stickers (the assumption that the coin will automatically be priced at a premium), it seems sensible to me to have the stickers on the back of the slab.

But other collectors will be attracted to them. (I don't know what I'm looking at but the sticker says it's good so it must be worth the extra money.)

[MarkFeld]

I agree with you, James, the back would be best to place the sticker.

 

I was just reading an article by Rick Tomaska and his definition of a CAC sticker equates with premium quality.

 

Once again, this is the only beef that I have with the concept. As someone mentioned earlier, if the CAC sticker is to denote a PQ status then it should be a different color than the coin that just made their approval.

That's the beef I have with dealers who hype the coins, probably knowing full well that the coins aren't necessarily "premium quality" as many/most people understand the term. Granted, the confusing language initially used by CAC made it easier for dealers to try to get away with that.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

And the assumption that "the coin will automatically be priced at a premium" is flat out wrong in many instances. Why not deal with reality, rather than assumptions and speculation?

Mark, I agree with you! But I would bet money right now (not a lot, mind you ) that there are buyers who will automatically assume that a stickered coin will be priced with a built-in premium. That isn't mere speculation. I know coin collectors like this!

 

I'm not saying it's a smart buyer who jumps to such a conclusion, but you and I both know that not all buyers are very smart.

 

(...myself included by the way)

[TomB]

I know exactly how JA determines which coins to sticker and I can see how he's defining the PQ aspect.

 

I do wish that he'd done a better job of picking a market friendly definition. But when only about 30% of coins in a grade are stickering, it's hard to argue with the assertion that the stickered cons are actually PQ compared to what's typically on the market.

Oh, TDN, what a place for a Freudian slip.

 

It should be well-known my dislike for how the CAC has introduced itself and unilaterally "updated", "modernized" or otherwise changed the working definition of at least one term in the hobby-industry. Additionally, some affiliated dealers appear to be stating or at least suggesting that the CAC sticker denotes a truly PQ coin for the grade. Both of these actions undermine the CAC effort, undermine the organizational or leadership skills of JA and undermine the integrity or knowledge of those who write for the CAC or aggressively advertise under its banner, in my opinion.

 

As I wrote in a deleted thread at PCGS; I wish all collectors well, wish NGC and PCGS well and wish the CAC well, but the more I have see from the CAC the less I have been impressed with its motivation or mechanism.

[stinkycheese1]

Um, quick question.

 

Why does on the CAC's home page it says this:

The green CAC label placed on this holder denotes that this coin has met CAC's stringent grading standards.

CAC Is an independent numismatic coin authentication service and is not connnected with the grading service that graded and encapsulatedt his coin, or with any other coin grading service. TO verify authenticity and more, go to CACcoin.com

 

 

What? It then says on their "About" page that CAC is a sticker on a coin that meets or exceeds their definition for quality.

 

I didn't know CAC was an independent authentication service, and if so, why would this be needed if third party graders (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) Have already slabbed and therefore authenticated the coin?

 

[just-john]

some people must have way to much time on their hands to worry about CAC this and CAC that. Now where the sticker is on the slab LIONS and Tigers and Bears O MY .This has to be a typing test for some people or just bored.

[lehigh96]

[James_OldeTowne]

some people must have way to much time on their hands to worry about CAC this and CAC that. Now where the sticker is on the slab LIONS and Tigers and Bears O MY .This has to be a typing test for some people or just bored.

Well heck, we all want the CAC to be a rousing success, don't we? These types of threads let us all feel like we're contributing to their cause .

[EZ_E]

At least these threads are educating some about the abuse of the system.

[MarkFeld]

Um, quick question.

 

Why does on the CAC's home page it says this:

The green CAC label placed on this holder denotes that this coin has met CAC's stringent grading standards.

CAC Is an independent numismatic coin authentication service and is not connnected with the grading service that graded and encapsulatedt his coin, or with any other coin grading service. TO verify authenticity and more, go to CACcoin.com

 

 

What? It then says on their "About" page that CAC is a sticker on a coin that meets or exceeds their definition for quality.

 

I didn't know CAC was an independent authentication service, and if so, why would this be needed if third party graders (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) Have already slabbed and therefore authenticated the coin?

Kevin, I think their point is that they don't consider themselves a grading company and that they aren't affiliated with NGC or PCGS. In approving/stickering certain coins, they are indicating that those coins meet their grading standards.

[EZ_E]

So, it appears that there are two major negatives about CAC:

 

1) CAC never provided an absolute, clear-cut definition of their service.

 

2) Dealers are manipulating the system claiming that all CAC approved coins equates to premium quality. They then turn the $20 CAC fee into a 20% premium. Good deal, eh?

[MarkFeld]

So, it appears that there are two major negatives about CAC:

 

1) CAC never provided an absolute, clear-cut definition of their service.

 

2) Dealers are manipulating the system claiming that all CAC approved coins equates to premium quality. They then turn the $20 CAC fee into a 20% premium. Good deal, eh?

Victor, the premium could be more or less than 20%, depending upon the coin and the dealer. But, as I have posted elsewhere, my belief is that with or without CAC, NGC, PCGS, etc., and regardless of market conditions, certain dealers consistently hype and price their coins to the moon. On the other hand, other dealers don't, so thankfully, buyers (both collectors and dealers) have a choice.

[Houston Investor]

Many sellers will use the CAC sticker (a slick marketing gimmick aimed primarily at the big money collectors) to promote their sales goals: higher prices = more profit. Now that we are in a recession, it will be interesting to see how much of a premium people will really pay for CAC stickered coins. Ignore the seller hype (plus the shills in here) and check what these coins are really trading for on Ebay or Teletrade.

 

There is no doubt PQ coins are keeper coins (not for sale at average quality money). An experienced, knowledgable coin market player does not need a CAC sticker to know this or to price his merchandise. Yes, a CAC stickered coin may be worth a 20% premium or more if it is indeed PQ, but that would be true anyhow without the sticker. One thing that disturbs me, is that the other two major grading services, ANACS and ICG are not included in the CAC game plan.

 

PQ can be subjective - I like brilliant, white coins with super luster. Some other guy likes rust toned coins and thats his idea of PQ. I would never pay a premium for a rainbow toned coin, somebody else may bid into the stratosphere.

[MikeInFL]

Well said, Parker. I agree with you in large part. However, I wonder what you mean by this comment:

 

"One thing that disturbs me, is that the other two major grading services, ANACS and ICG are not included in the CAC game plan."

 

Would you care to explain why this disturbs you? Thank you...Mike the Shill