A hypothetical question about NGC's new copper guaranty

[shylock]

I applaud their new 10 year copper guaranty, it's great peace of mind for someone buying a newly slabbed NGC coin. But the fact that the guaranty didn't always exist creates some tricky scenarios.

 

Lets say Joe Collector buys an NGC MS65RD Indian cent in one of their pre-guaranty slabs. It's 85% red, close to borderline RB but comparable to many others in RD slabs. And it's a rare variety he paid good money for since no other RD examples are known at this grade level. But the slab looks like it was handled with a shovel -- it's so scratched up over the coin he can barely examine it. No big deal to Joe C, he loves this coin and will simply get it reholdered by the same service that graded it 65RD to begin with.

 

But not so fast Joe -- can NGC now refuse to reholder one of their former RD coins since they now look at copper in a different light? Seems to me they could, otherwise this would be a backdoor method of getting a pre-guaranty copper into a guaranteed slab without any regrading involved. But if they can refuse to reholder it, what recourse is left to Joe Collector? He's not willing to accept a downgrade to RB. Is this wonderful coin now stuck in this beat up holder forever? Or does NGC still issue non-guaranteed slabs for situations like this, and if so how desirable an option is that?

 

Just one of the complications of a grading service implementing a new policy in mid-stream...

[gmarguli]

NGC said that they have someone examine the coins before being reholdered to make sure they meet certain qualifications.

 

If Joe C cannot get the coin reholdered, he should do what I do, send the coin to a coin doctor and have the brown removed.

[Newmismatist]

If Joe C cannot get the coin reholdered, he should do what I do, send the coin to a coin doctor and have the brown removed.

 

Greg

 

And which doctor might that be?

 

(Does he do house calls, I 've got a lot of 85-90% RBs, that would love to loose a little of the RB tan! )

[michael]

paul this is a great thread i love it

 

for me lets say ngc will not reholder the coin as then it has a new tag and so the grading guarantee

i tnink what they should do is reholder the coin qith the older tag and put on the tag that the coin was only reholdered with the older tag but with the conotation that is does not have the ten year guarantee

 

michael

 

or better yet just put the older tag in the new holder and that tells you it is not guaranteed but i guess then it kind of taints the coin

 

man what a shame if you got a coin that is in a damaged holder but yet would not qualify for the same grade guarantee hmmmmmmmmm what to do

 

well if you think about it if it doesnot qwualify for the new guaranty holder as it is not the same designated coin iguess ngc would have to buy it back under their guarantee??

 

hmmmmmmmm this will open a huge can of worms so to speak

 

waht a great thread i never thought of this paul

 

well i love copper coinage but i can see why i will not collect any red coins i would rahter have a monster toned rb or b coin or a nice almost red coin in a rb holder

 

but this is me

 

red copper scares the [!@#%^&^] out of me

 

also close to red in rb holders and monster toned exceptional eye appealling rb and even b coins to me are more scarcer and better vlaues and worth as much if not more than all the not quite red coins in red designated holders both services and even the monster no brainer finest known red coins evewrybody agrees are red just the like day they were struck i think are way overpriced and even if not they scare the [!@#%^&^] out of me and i would never buy any as 5 10 years from now i would not know what to expect you would think they would stay red as if they were red for a hundred years or more why would they change in ten or 20 years in airtight hermetically sealed totally inert holders?

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

well red copper still scares the s1hit out of me and to me is way overpriced with more than 70% maybe more??of the so callee certified red coins indians two cent pieces and large cents not really true red coins to me

 

 

michael

 

 

michael

[michael]

that is why for indian cents 1864 to 1909 i only like brown and rb proof coins

 

and the copper nickel 1860 to 64 indians and flyers ms and proof AND THE large cents in rb brown holders

 

 

NO RED COINS FOR ME

 

 

[Newmismatist]

that is why for indian cents 1864 to 1909 i only like brown and rb proof coins . . . .NO RED COINS FOR ME

 

Michael - go take a look at the RED IHCs I posted on the RD, RB & BN thread, you might change your mind!

 

EDITED to add - oh heck - you can look at one right here!

[IrishMike]

I think he has no recourse nor should he. Anyone paying serious money knows the risk they run by buying coins in a red grade. Standards change as well as the color. Even with a guarantee it could always be called a mechanical error.

[bigmoose-migration]

Newmismatist, that 1903 proof Indian Cent is even more spectacular in person, as the scan just does not do justice to the pristine orange peel fields or the phenomenal luster. As you know, that coin is now proudly in my hands for a while. TomT.

[Newmismatist]

Tom T is now the proud owner of that 1903 Pr66RD! Tom, just so you know, of the non-cameos in my Proof IHC set, that coin was THE nicest of all my Proof IHCs - I think that coin is a Pr67, it's as RD as you'll ever see, & it's truly a virgin - It was nicer than the Gorrell Pr67 coin that sold in the same auction (at least IMHO)!

 

I'm delighted that it's found a new "home" with your other exquisite coins. Why'd you wait so long to buy it??? (Can I have visitation rights?)

 

 

[Newmismatist]

Anyone paying serious money knows the risk they run by buying coins in a red grade. Standards change as well as the color. Even with a guarantee it could always be called a mechanical error.

 

IrishMike - It IS what it IS & it really doesn't matter what the TPGSs call it, or if their standards change, or they decide that only Purple coins are Red - Just ask Tom T who now is its proud owner -

[shylock]

Michael's idea of reholdering the coin with the original label sounds like a great solution that both Joe and NGC could live with. It keeps a small problem from turning into a hassle for a good customer.

 

Mike - If Joe deserves no recourse then he essentially purchased a raw coin at a certified price. One of the luxeries that comes with the certified price is the understanding that a replacement slab will be provided for a nominal fee. If Joe doesn't even deserve that luxery than NGC is saying all pre-guaranty copper grades are now void. I don't think that was their intention, and think they'd much rather come up with a customer friendly way to smooth out the transition between their old and new copper policy. As for mechanical errors in grading being used to circumvent their guaranty, that would reduce certification to a complete farce.

 

 

[IrishMike]

Paul I guess I should have put a smilie or a winkie in my post. However from what I have been reading about guarantees at least across the street if you as a buyer purchase an obvious red brown coin in a red holder and submit it for a new slab you are going to get a tag on it that says red brown and the arguement would be that it was an obvious red/brown and the onus is on you. Why would this be any different then the 45P merc that wasn't full band?

 

The buyer in your hypothetical of course can have his coin reholder but its going to cost him the price to do so as I don't see any liability by NGC since there was no guarantee at the time.

 

Paul would you agree or not agree that calling the merc a mechanical error a farce? Even if it was there has to be some moral responsibility on the part of the grading service as this was the genesis of PCGS, to facilitate the purchase of sight unseen coins.

[shylock]

Mike - I missed the thread about the "FB" Merc being a mechanical error, now I get your drift. That's exactly the same as saying RD was intended to be RB "so tough nuggies and have a nice day". I can understand a grading service not being accountable for mislabeling an 09-S as an 09-S VDB, that's not a judgment call. But anything pertaining to the grade has to be accounted for. Otherwise the implications are endless and it is a farce.

 

Actually, Joe Collector is a lot like you. The only thing he dislikes more than slabs are scuffed up slabs!

[bigd5]

Interesting question/scenario. What if NGC contacts "Joe", and lets him know that his coin isn't full red any longer in NGC's eyes, and they will not reholder the coin as a full red coin. They can explain that they never had a color guarantee until recently, and that this coin doesn't meet their criteria now as a full red specimen.

"Joe" would be upset, but if the coin isn't red any longer, it isn't red. That would be one fact that I'm sure would be hard to argue.

I think "Joe" would be stuck with the coin in the old, beat up holder.

Ngc wouldn't be liable for any compensation for a downgrade, as they never had the color guarantee when that particular coin was slabbed.

I think "Joe" would be out of luck.

[MikeKing]

Joe" would be upset, but if the coin isn't red any longer, it isn't red.

 

You've got a point there. I have two such coins...perhaps. Both pcgs graded RB, one in a green holder, the other recently purchased from David Hall. Both rejected by NGC as RB. Honestly, the one in the green holder looks brown with very very small amount of red. The other one looks like it had been treated at some point. Should have returned it, but didn't. Anyway, I'm not sure.

 

Whatever the case, they just won't hold up to likely tougher standards with the new guarantee and I can understand why.

 

 

[gmarguli]

Both pcgs graded RB, one in a green holder, the other recently purchased from David Hall. Both rejected by NGC as RB. Honestly, the one in the green holder looks brown with very very small amount of red. The other one looks like it had been treated at some point.

 

It sounds like you are saying the coin you purchased from David Hall has been treated. This cannot be the case. I have read across the street many times how he only sells PQ material. Also, it is a PCGS slabbed coin and they wouldn't holder the coin if it had been worked. Your bias is showing.

[Newmismatist]

You've got a point there. I have two such coins...perhaps. Both pcgs graded RB, one in a green holder, the other recently purchased from David Hall. Both rejected by NGC as RB. Honestly, the one in the green holder looks brown with very very small amount of red. The other one looks like it had been treated at some point. Should have returned it, but didn't. Anyway, I'm not sure.

 

PCGS does honor its color guarantee for RD coins, just depends on their mood & It may take awhile

[gmarguli]

PCGS does honor its color guarantee for RD coins, just depends on their mood & It may take awhile

 

And you better be a collector and not a dealer. Collectors can get paid by PCGS, but dealers get the shaft. At least, that's what I've been told by someone in the know.

[IrishMike]

Anyone paying serious money knows the risk they run by buying coins in a red grade. Standards change as well as the color. Even with a guarantee it could always be called a mechanical error.

 

IrishMike - It IS what it IS & it really doesn't matter what the TPGSs call it, or if their standards change, or they decide that only Purple coins are Red - Just ask Tom T who now is its proud owner -

 

You're preaching to the choir .

[Newmismatist]

You're preaching to the choir .

 

Well Ok! Here's one for the choir members enjoyment - (one of the nicest from my Proof IHC that I sold last January at FUN - Big Moose ended up w/the nicest from the set)