Questionable toning?

[JIM F.]

Received back from PCGS some no-grades, with excuse "questionable toning".

These were bright coins I bought 20+ years ago, and now have picked up some color. over the years.

 

Maybe PCGS only wants to grade dipped coins? I think I might abandon PCGS due to this experience.

 

Very frustrating to me.

 

Comments?

 

[TonerGuy]

What coins were they and describe the toning they exhibit, that might make it easier to understand why PCGS bagged them.

 

Or even better, post some pics.

 

Michael

[LucyBop]

I had this happen to me on a Frankie... I couldn't believe that I would blow it, I figured, whats wrong with those cats... When I got the Fankie back, I couldn't believe I had sent this eyesore in.... They were right in my case....

[nwcs]

It's usually something they haven't seen before. I had one morgan returned as questionable. I showed it to the NGC guys at the grading class and they said the obv was original but it was the reverse which had some questionable toning on it due to a previous cleaning (cleaned only on one side, too). So maybe there is only a part of the coin that is at issue?

[proofs03-migration]

I know this may not sound right, but normally PCGS is not stating that the coin is altered like oven baking, it just means when a coin is returned for unknown toning questions, the graders just are not positive about the colorization and therefore are unable to case the coin. They are not saying the coin is falsely altered, just that the coin has an issue they cannot identify. This could mean it is a education matter. It is better to say nothing than say something is a certain grade if it cannot be explained or proven.

 

Steve.

[gmarguli]

Received back from PCGS some no-grades, with excuse "questionable toning".

These were bright coins I bought 20+ years ago, and now have picked up some color. over the years.

 

Maybe PCGS only wants to grade dipped coins? I think I might abandon PCGS due to this experience.

 

Very frustrating to me.

 

Comments?

 

Join the club.

 

I think it has to do with several factors.

 

1) They don't take the time to examine the coin. A quick glance and that is it.

 

2) They get paid even if they bodybag a coin.

 

3) If you disagree then they win. You'll re$ubmit the coin.

 

4) If you disagree you can get the Presidential Review which is basically David Hall's secretary putting a sticker on the flip telling you that PCGS got it right the first time for only $20.

 

I've received questionable/puzzling bodybags from all grading services. However, without a doubt PCG$ bodybagged a much higher percentage of coins than the other grading services. Back when I actually used them I estimated that about 80% of my bodybagged coins got slabbed the very next time without me doing a single thing to them.

 

Oddly, in my experience ANACS was the next quickest to bodybag a coin (either bag it for invisible PVC or put it in a net grade slab). However, since I've last used them, I've heard they have eased up.

 

[jom]

1) They don't take the time to examine the coin. A quick glance and that is it.

 

Given the number of coins they do a month and the number of graders they have I think each coin gets about 10 sec. worth of review.

 

I wonder just how long the market is going to put up with paying to get a coin graded and getting NOTHING in return?

 

I still think a grading service should tell you BEFORE you pay what the grade will be. I'm not saying "buy a grade" but they should tell you what grade it is then you can decide to have it slabbed or not and THEN pay. It seems crazy but what other products out there would stand for NOT knowing what you get BEFORE you pay for it or at least get a return of my money if I'm not satisfied. If I buy milk at the store and it is sour then I should be able to return it, no?

 

jom

[gmarguli]

I still think a grading service should tell you BEFORE you pay what the grade will be. I'm not saying "buy a grade" but they should tell you what grade it is then you can decide to have it slabbed or not and THEN pay. It seems crazy but what other products out there would stand for NOT knowing what you get BEFORE you pay for it or at least get a return of my money if I'm not satisfied. If I buy milk at the store and it is sour then I should be able to return it, no?

 

Lawyers. Accountants. Investment advisors. Doctors. Drug dealers.

[jom]

Lawyers. Accountants. Investment advisors. Doctors. Drug dealers.

 

Damn! I should have said LEGITIMATE products...

 

jom

[LAWMAN-migration]

and lumping lawyers with "Accountants. Investment advisors. Doctors. Drug dealers", I don't know if this is an insult or a compliment?

 

 

[LAWMAN-migration]

gmarguli, you forgot INSURANCE! You know, where you pay a premium and THEN they show you the policy which they try to get out of paying on the minute you need them to pay-- and which the courts actually go through the charade of interpreting what the policy means.

[gmarguli]

gmarguli, you forgot INSURANCE! You know, where you pay a premium and THEN they show you the policy which they try to get out of paying on the minute you need them to pay-- and which the courts actually go through the charade of interpreting what the policy means.

 

Yep, them insurance people are pretty bad. Thankfully, I don't work that end. I work on the broker end. That's the end that gets a cut of your premiums even when the insurance company tries to get out of paying your claim.

 

As for your question of: and lumping lawyers with "Accountants. Investment advisors. Doctors. Drug dealers", I don't know if this is an insult or a compliment? It is an insult, but since we don't have many accountants, investment advisors, doctors, and drug dealers as forum members, I'm not to worried about insulting them and putting them in the same class as lawyers!

 

And seriously, you wouldn't believe the lies that people tell trying to get insurance companies to pay their claims. I get to hear it all. People tell the same story over and over again. They call us up with some sob story and tell us the same lies over and over again. They think that the insurance company is just going to roll over and pay. If the brokers hear the same stories (lies) all the time, I'm sure the insurance companies are flooded with them and have become really jaded about it.

 

[Dry]

Can someone tell me why a SAE thats a few years old with rainbow toning doesnt automatically get bagged for AT?

[nwcs]

Because pure silver tones far more quickly than coin silver. And it tones a bit differently than coin silver.

[Dry]

Thanks for the response Nwcs. I know AT is typically defined as having something applied to the coin's suface. Although I do not believe that most of these SAEs have had anything "applied to their surface", I do believe that these SAEs were in an environment that dramatically speeded up the toning process and enhanced the colors. I also believe that this was probably the intent of the owner. I have had SAEs rim-tone in one color while in a damp basement for several years. With a little practice and some added ingredients to the "environment", I believe I could get some much nicer looking coins in my basement. If this is true, wouldnt it be environmental damage? Perhaps because the colors are favorable and dont hinder grading that they are not deemed this? Or does environmental damage have to alter the surface other than color?

Im just trying to learn here, so responses are appreciated. I find it interesting on how we define terms such as AT.

[Elcontador]

It is an insult, but since we don't have many accountants, investment advisors, doctors, and drug dealers as forum members, I'm not to worried about insulting them and putting them in the same class as lawyers!

 

You should be worried about insulting us. What you are asking me to do is to tell a guy how much $ he is going to owe the government or the amount of his refund before I do the work.

 

Or worse, asking me to guarantee the result of someone's tax audit before I have looked at any of the government's correspondence or his documentation for what he entered on the return that got pulled (FYI, I haven't had anything I've prepared audited in over six years, but you should see some of the **** that people file and ask me to fix when it gets pulled).

 

The analogy re my services and a defective product is specious on its face, because I perform a service, I do not sell a product. If you have any questions about my services, you are free to ask about them before I begin my work. If you don't like something about my services during this time, you are free to go elsewhere.

 

I am not going to defend the people in my profession who sell abusive tax shelters and / or sign off on audits which have unacceptable accounting practices. However, the local practitioner is typically a trustworthy individual who provides a valuable service to his / her clients. I have spent twenty-five years as a certified public accountant performing accounting services, saving people millions of dollars and providing peace of mind.

 

To paint everyone in my profession with such a broad brush is very insulting and unwarranted. I feel that an apology is in order.

[TonerGuy]

It seems crazy but what other products out there would stand for NOT knowing what you get BEFORE you pay for it or at least get a return of my money if I'm not satisfied.

Lawyers. Accountants. Investment advisors. Doctors. Drug dealers

 

Hey now, I kinda like being lumped in that group, not bad company, well except for the drug dealers and I guess that's all based on your point of view though.

 

There is always the "other group."

 

Prostitutes, The Mafia & the IRS ---

 

Where you know you going to get screwed going in.

 

Michael

[gmarguli]

I would apologize, but I was kidding. I don't agree with Jom that the services should tell you what the coin will grade before you purchase their service. However, it might be nice for services to give people a discount if the coin doesn't meet their minimum grade or doesn't cross over. I think those days will come as submissions dry up.

 

I don't think accountants are bad even if the ones I'd dealt with seem to bill for everything, but itemize nothing. Nothing like getting a $5000 bill in the mail and having no idea exactly what the accountants did.

 

Hope to see you this Saturday!

[Beijim]

I still think a grading service should tell you BEFORE you pay what the grade will be. I'm not saying "buy a grade" but they should tell you what grade it is then you can decide to have it slabbed or not and THEN pay. It seems crazy but what other products out there would stand for NOT knowing what you get BEFORE you pay for it or at least get a return of my money if I'm not satisfied. If I buy milk at the store and it is sour then I should be able to return it, no?

 

Have you ever bought real estate? You pay an inspector to evaluate the property. The inspector charges a fee for the time and expertise s/he expends in providing the evaluation. If the property turns out to have problems, you don't get the option of paying a reduced inspection fee. The fee is the fee.

 

NGC and PCGS provide a service. They don't sell milk.

 

Beijim

 

[ArtR]

Or does environmental damage have to alter the surface other than color?

Coins that tone to a very dark thick color which has impaired the luster will normally be considered environmental damage.

 

No it does not have to alter the surface of the coin, but over time if left in the environment that caused the toning, damage to the surface will occur.

[jom]

NGC and PCGS provide a service. They don't sell milk.

 

Good point. Well, there goes my theory down the toilet!

 

Of course, I've always thought they DID sell milk. Sour milk actually. Oh well...

 

jom

[Elcontador]

Well, if you get a bill from an accountant for $5,000 without any detail, I'd suggest finding another one. I wouldn't have the nerve to do that. I work hard for my money and if a client is getting a large bill, he / she should know what I did & the related time spent.

 

I'll be there on Saturday!