eBay auction of NGC MS-64 bust half - Why'd I do so poorly?

[James_OldeTowne]

Bad images? Bad description? Too wordy? Bad title?

 

I really thought this coin would go to $2000 m/l, and lost my shirt (and socks) on it. Was it too expensive an item for ebay? Many other items we sold in the same round did pretty well. Your thoughts, please....

 

James

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3042486930

[jtryka]

I think it's too pricey for eBay. In my experience, most eBay buyers are afraid to spend a lot on a big money coin given the risks of eBay, so the market isn't there. They would be willing to spend strong money on a weak coin since the risk is smaller (like buying a $100 coin for $125). So, for guys like me, I look to eBay for the better date stuff since it will be cheaper, with fewer competitors, whereas the big auction houses have more competition for those better pieces, so there are fewer bargains. Just my thoughts.

[EVillageProwler]

I looked at your obv images, and they make the coin look too chewy -- i.e., like a gift 64.

 

And, based on my perception from your images, I'd say that the coin is worth less than 64 money.

 

EVP

 

[BillJones]

I'd say that your coin was overgraded by a 1 point. It had too many marks, and it also had the dark "slag" marks in front of Ms, Liberty's nose and in back of her head. The coin had also been dipped, but not badly.

 

Blue Sheet "bid" of the type in NGC MS-64 is $ 1,460.00, so your price realized was in that ballpark. I would grade the coin MS-63 and Gray Sheet bid for that is $1,100.00. In that sense you did OK, but I can understand your disappointment.

[chinook]

I agree with EVP. Maybe those marks are on the holder, but there definately looks like too many hits for a 64. It sold for premium 63 money which is probably about right.

[Count_Erfit]

Personally, I think that people are wising up to rarity. That 1829 in "unc" in 1971 carried a RETAIL of $52.50 in "Coin Prices" magazine.

 

For the 1400 you can get a rarer coin that has not been promoted over all these years. For instance, you can get an uncirculated seated dollar for that price that was $130 in 1971.

 

There is NO shortage of capped bust halves. When I began coins, tables were FULL of them and they were just too common to buy.

 

I think there is just some discernment coming out in purchasing now that ALL coins are so pricey.

[James_OldeTowne]

Followup question that's related: IF I, as a dealer, feel an encapsulated coin's grade is, shall we say, optimistic, should I mention what I think the real grade should be? I mean, shouldn't the question of whether the grade's reasonable or not be a discussion with the new owner and the certification company?

 

To be perfectly honest, the coin is, in my opinion, MS- 62 and dipped to high heck (no offense, NGC),. But, didn't I advertise it honestly by simply parroting the certification company's grade? I tried to be careful and not to inject my own bias either way in the listing.

 

Should a dealer be held responsible for what might appear to the end-buyer to be a lax grade? or should it be sold as-is, since it's certified, and the grading aspect is the reponsibility of the certification company?

 

James

[SilverEagleCoins]

Speaking as a customer, I would be afraid to purchase a coin professionally grades at MS64 if the owner feels it is ONLY MS62. Right out the gate my confidence that it is a good coin is shaken. However there are ways around that.

 

Speaking as my job as a Marketing Manager, if you feel you must mention the disparity do it in a positive fashion. Do not say "NGC rated is MS64 but I feel it is only MS62." Instead say, "I believe this coin to be MS62 but the professionals at NGC rated it MS64!!!!"

 

You are not being untruthful but it sound a heck of a lot better.

[BillJones]

I try to use the concept “PQ” judiciously. I pay premiums for PQ coins and I have so far most always gotten premium prices for such pieces from collectors and dealers.

 

I avoid buying coins like the one you sold, which I think are overgraded. When I do have to buy them as a part of a collection, I offer what I think they are worth, and not what it says on a slab. Usually I wholesale those coins to dealers like car dealers wholesale their “less than cream puff” used cars to lower end lots.

 

Talking down the grades on slabs is difficult to do. Yes, I will tell a good customer, “Don’t buy that because you can do better.” But a lot of the people to whom I sell know the ropes already. I guess if I were putting something up on Ebay, I’d just state the grade and not spend a lot of time writing about how the grade is too high. Surviving on Ebay is hard enough of you are honest, and that’s why I don’t do much there. My kind of better material just does not get much respect on Ebay.

 

[gmarguli]

The coin doesn't appear nice in the photos. It looks very scuffy. Those black spots on the obverse look like burn marks.

 

You ended the auction at 9AM PST on a Sunday. You lost all the potential bidders in Hawaii. You lost all the west coast bidders they sleep in late. You lost all the bidders who are out to Sunday brunch. You lost all the bidders that were at chruch.

 

Never end an auction in the morning if you want a lot of snipers.

[goose3]

Greg is correct.

 

When I sell on ebay, which is rare, I always have my listing(s) end on Sundays around 9-10pm EDT. And never on a Holiday weekend!

[Leothelion]

You lost all the bidders who are out to Sunday brunch. You lost all the bidders that were at chruch.

 

Yes, I would need to agree! Faith and hunger is mightier then the bid!

 

Leo

[TomB]

Well, I read the responses to your post before I wrote this, however, I already knew what I was going to write and it didn't change.

 

This coin isn't even worth the bid you finally received for it. The small images of the coin look chippy like there are many hits on the coin. Once the images are clicked on and blown up the coin looks better, however, I wouldn't be clicking on those images to find out what the coin looked like if I were greeted with the images you furnished. Also, the coin has no eye appeal. The piece is obviously dipped, with little or likely no original patina, has hits all over that are not indicative of an MS64 and has dark spots and streaks on it. It looks bad.

 

The coin may have a Greysheet value of $2,300 but this series is not often collected by date in MS grades. So, you need someone who wants one of these as a type coin. These are cool coins but are not really rare in MS holders and at the price level of this piece it is wise to simply buy a nice coin for the money instead of trying to buy a dog on the cheap.

 

That's what your buyer did according to these images; he bought a dog on the cheap.

 

Don't sell coins like this and you won't have a problem.

[LucyBop]

I have a question here. I have been selling a few items on Ebay, in your auction I see you have your website listed... I thought and I don't remember where I heard this, that you couldn't have a url to your website?

 

I want to put one to mine but I avoided it. Is it ok to do this?

[MAULEMALL]

I have a question here. I have been selling a few items on Ebay, in your auction I see you have your website listed... I thought and I don't remember where I heard this, that you couldn't have a url to your website?

 

I want to put one to mine but I avoided it. Is it ok to do this?

 

Lucy Darlin you go ahead and put her up.Ifn ebay has a problem they will sure let you know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been watchin Lonesome Dove all day.I got it on vhs.6 hrs.Watched em tossin Morgans up on the bar.

[LucyBop]

I don't want to get naur'd off of ebay or my auctions yanked....

 

which brings up another question, if Ebay yanks a auction, do they refund the listing fee?

[MAULEMALL]

Well, I read the responses to your post before I wrote this, however, I already knew what I was going to write and it didn't change.

 

This coin isn't even worth the bid you finally received for it. The small images of the coin look chippy like there are many hits on the coin. Once the images are clicked on and blown up the coin looks better, however, I wouldn't be clicking on those images to find out what the coin looked like if I were greeted with the images you furnished. Also, the coin has no eye appeal. The piece is obviously dipped, with little or likely no original patina, has hits all over that are not indicative of an MS64 and has dark spots and streaks on it. It looks bad.

 

The coin may have a Greysheet value of $2,300 but this series is not often collected by date in MS grades. So, you need someone who wants one of these as a type coin. These are cool coins but are not really rare in MS holders and at the price level of this piece it is wise to simply buy a nice coin for the money instead of trying to buy a dog on the cheap.

 

That's what your buyer did according to these images; he bought a dog on the cheap.

 

Don't sell coins like this and you won't have a problem.

 

 

" he bought a dog on the cheap".Tom ....You are a Smooth talkin son of a gun.

I am not versed in this particular variety so all I can offer as to a reason why it didn't meet your original goal is They bought the coin and not the holder.

 

I offer my opinion on some of my auctions .Not so much as to the technical merits but more on the eye appeal and astestics.

 

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

I don't want to get naur'd off of ebay or my auctions yanked....

 

which brings up another question, if Ebay yanks a auction, do they refund the listing fee?

 

Thats a good question.

 

Don't they give warnings before they boot.

[MAULEMALL]

This is one of my auctions I am running now.I just had a buyer who returned a 1995 ddo cent and it kinda pi$$ed me off till I got the coin back and I could see what he was saying.

 

 

So now I'm going a little over to the side of caution.

[gmarguli]

I don't want to get naur'd off of ebay or my auctions yanked....

 

which brings up another question, if Ebay yanks a auction, do they refund the listing fee?

 

Thats a good question.

 

Don't they give warnings before they boot.

 

You won't get NARUed for putting your web site in the auction. What eBay does will depend on how much you sell. If you are a power seller they will likely warn you and let the auctions continue. If you are not a big seller, but they have bids and/or are close to the end, they will let them run. If you sell little and there are no bids and/or they are close to the beginning, they will yank them.

 

I've never heard of anyone being NARUed for violations like this, but I'm sure it has happened.

[James_OldeTowne]

((Do not say "NGC rated is MS64 but I feel it is only MS62." Instead say, "I believe this coin to be MS62 but the professionals at NGC rated it MS64!!!!"))

 

SilverEagleCoins - you're a marketing genius! I love it!! I am going to use that strategy next time - wish I was smart enough to think of something like that!

 

 

 

((The coin doesn't appear nice in the photos. It looks very scuffy. Those black spots on the obverse look like burn marks.))

 

gmarguli, you are absolutely correct! Also, thanks for the tip on when to end the auction. It sounds like it is wise to end high-dollar items at the times you noted, whereas for cheap items, maybe the ending time doesn't matter so much.

 

 

 

TomB your points are well-taken - thanks. I agree with you, that the coin is NOT nice and is lacking in eye-appeal, but I thought that maybe that was just me - and that someone out there might prefer a blast-white bust half. Personally, I hate stark white bust coins period, but as a dealer, I thought this was a coin that might have appeal to someone else's POV. I'll be honest with you - I bought the holder, and not the coin - and I KNOW better than that! Basically, I deserved to get spanked on this coin.

 

 

 

((I have a question here. I have been selling a few items on Ebay, in your auction I see you have your website listed... I thought and I don't remember where I heard this, that you couldn't have a url to your website?))

 

LucyBop, my understanding is you can't "link" to your website with a click-through URL, but you can mention it by name, if you want. We've found that many people will just go ahead and type in the URL. I think it's a ridiculous rule on eBay's part! By the way, my Frankies are on-line now! http://www.earlyus.com/franklins.htm

 

 

 

Thanks for the most excellent discussion and great pointers.

 

James

[LucyBop]

Cool Frankies and great website set-up... I like that....

[Newmismatist]

Bad images? Bad description? Too wordy? Bad title?

 

I really thought this coin would go to $2000 m/l, and lost my shirt (and socks) on it. Was it too expensive an item for ebay? Many other items we sold in the same round did pretty well. Your thoughts, please....

 

Well, here goes

 

1. No eye appeal

2. Dipped & improperly rinsed - hence residue spots

3. Lots of "marks" on the coin (or are they in the holder?) so it makes the coin look over-graded.

[Newmismatist]

To be perfectly honest, the coin is, in my opinion, MS- 62 and dipped to high heck (no offense, NGC),. But, didn't I advertise it honestly by simply parroting the certification company's grade? I tried to be careful and not to inject my own bias either way in the listing.

 

Well, if you thought it was an MS62 & over-dipped, why di you buy it? If that's truly your opinion, along with your opinion on the infamous Hebernia, I don't think I would be comfortable buying coins from you as you seem to buy a lot of over-graded coins, & then complain that they're over-graded, dipped, re-toned. etc., etc.

mistakes that novice collectors make BEFORE they learn how to grade.

 

If you sold this MS62 for MS63+ money, why are you complaining?

Or did you sell it for far more than its worth & now you want to let your buyer know what a lousey coin you sold him? Or maybe you want to real rub it in that's he's screwed?

[TomB]

Thanks for taking my reply in a professional way and not as a personal attack. It was very honestly and quickly written.

[James_OldeTowne]

((Well, if you thought it was an MS62 & over-dipped, why di you buy it? If that's truly your opinion, along with your opinion on the infamous Hebernia, I don't think I would be comfortable buying coins from you as you seem to buy a lot of over-graded coins, & then complain that they're over-graded, dipped, re-toned. etc., etc.

mistakes that novice collectors make BEFORE they learn how to grade. ))

 

newmismatist, out of literally thousands of coins I've bought, I don't think buying TWO qualifies as a lot of over-grades, does it?? (Actually it's ONE - Dennis bought the Hibernia).

 

((If you sold this MS62 for MS63+ money, why are you complaining?))

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is, it's not just an "MS-62" - it's a CERTIFIED MS-62. So if the grade is guaranteed, why would bidders be so paranoid about getting stuck with an overgraded coin - if NGC would buy it back?

 

You make it sound like basically, the SLAB guarantee is worth zilch!

 

((Or did you sell it for far more than its worth & now you want to let your buyer know what a lousey coin you sold him? Or maybe you want to real rub it in that's he's screwed?))

 

That wasn't on my mind at all.

 

BTW, I did not buy this coin singly - it was part of a LARGE transaction, and as it turns out, was practically the last coin of that transaction to finally sell. Basically, the other coins were decent, and I made a small, though fair, profit on them. My loss on this coin basically wiped it out though!

 

As I said, I know I deserved to get spanked, I accept that as a costly tuition. But again, since the grade is supposed to be GUARANTEED by NGC (which I fully believe in), I though it would at least bring MS-64 wholesale.

 

Heck, I don't know what I'm trying to say, other than, I was stupid enough to buy the plastic, and everyone else was smart enough to buy the coin.

 

James

[SilverEagleCoins]

"Heck, I don't know what I'm trying to say, other than, I was stupid enough to buy the plastic, and everyone else was smart enough to buy the coin."

 

That quote may be the largest profit you'll ever scored!!! Now that both you and your partner have each been burned once, I don't want to see any more posts about coins that didn't go for the value of the holder.

[Newmismatist]

I think the point I'm trying to make is, it's not just an "MS-62" - it's a CERTIFIED MS-62. So if the grade is guaranteed, why would bidders be so paranoid about getting stuck with an overgraded coin - if NGC would buy it back?

 

You make it sound like basically, the SLAB guarantee is worth zilch!

 

* * *

As I said, I know I deserved to get spanked, I accept that as a costly tuition. But again, since the grade is supposed to be GUARANTEED by NGC (which I fully believe in), I though it would at least bring MS-64 wholesale.

 

Heck, I don't know what I'm trying to say, other than, I was stupid enough to buy the plastic, and everyone else was smart enough to buy the coin.

 

 

James,

 

Your last comment is probably your best - I suppose at one time or another we've all bought the plastic, not the coin - something like filling the hole with a coin you don't like, you almost always regret it.

 

BUT, IF you remember, you're original Q was, "Why'd I do so poorly?" and now, you've answered your own Q, which I think you knew all along. As a long time coin collector of very nice eye-appealing coins, I'll address your Question about the grade guarantee: Why buy a problem? Or to be really blunt - Why buy a lawsuit? If you buy an overgraded coin, you've got to submit it to the grading service under their grading guarantee - It may be YOUR OPINION that it's over graded, BUT, it may not be THEIR OPINION that its over-graded. Now what? You gonna sue 'em? Remember, grading is an OPINION. How are you going to prove that YOUR OPINION that it's overgraded, is more correct than THEIR OPINION that it's not? Who are you going to hire to represent you? - At what cost? But most important, who are you going to call as witnesses to PROVE that its overgraded?

AND How MUCH is all this going to cost?

I think if you analyse your question "why would bidders be so paranoid about getting stuck with an overgraded coin - if NGC would buy it back?" from that prospective, you'll also answer your own question. BTW, even if you take out the lawsuit scenerio, you still end up owning something that you and the grading service disagree upon, & you're the one that looses. - So maybe that grading "guarantee" is not worth quite as much as you think it is.

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Newmismatist, you are wise indeed! And yep, I got caught up in "slab fever" when I took on the collection of coins that included that half. Best thing I can do is to remember not to be stupid next time....

 

I was expecting someone to say "If you thought it was so overgraded why didn't you resubmit it". I actually did take it to NGC at a major show just for a verbal review. I won't mention any names or the specific show (so nobody can be offended), but was told that the coin was "just fine for the grade" and "meets our standards for MS-64". Again, like you said, just an opinion, but their verbal approval of the grade is what gave me the final confidence to go ahead with the ebay listing.

 

Live and learn!

 

BTW, I notice you're in Michigan, and our home office is in the Bank One Building, downtown Grand Rapids. Stop in some time and say hello!

 

James

[CarlWohlforth]

I was going to ask why not try NGC for a grade guarantee. Then I see you got an informal opinion. Is showing it to someone as good as actually submitting the coin to them?

 

I showed a dime with a staple scratch to an NGC person at a show. I was told it looked like a staple scratch and I should submit the coin for grade review. So I did and it was returned saying NGC was happy with the grade (would of been 65, is 63 because of scratch).

 

Are these coins graded correctly technically? Is it only the market grade that is wrong? Nobody here thinks that half is a 64 and it brought 63+ money. I am unable to sell my dime for 63 money.